Fundamentalism, in any flavor, really plays havoc with reality.
The conduit this time is the BBC news, which posted this confused article about Muslims (specifically, the cleric Sheikh Youssef al-Qaradawy) wanting Mecca’s time zone to be used as the world’s standard, replacing Greenwich.
The article is pretty weird, because it focused on the ridiculous claims by fundamentalist Muslims* but doesn’t say much in the way of rebutting any of them. For example, one claim listed in the article is that Mecca is the center of the Earth. I guess it must get hot there, what with all that ionized iron and magma surrounding it for thousands of kilometers!
Or do they think the Earth is flat? Well, then all arguments are off… though I suppose they’d still have to prove that Mecca is near the center of the Earth’s disk. "Because I said so" isn’t even a good excuse for a parent to use to a four year old, let alone be the basis of rewriting all of Earth’s time zones.
My favorite quotation in the article is this one:
One geologist argued that unlike other longitudes, Mecca’s was in perfect alignment to magnetic north.
That’s a good trick! How does a city align itself to anything? Maybe the civil borders can be north/south, but that’s arbitrary. Maybe some buildings do too, but a whole city?
And magnetic north? Perhaps the article author misquoted the geologist, or maybe it was in fact what the geologist said… but the magnetic poles of the Earth wander around over the surface of the planet. Does Mecca undergo changes in its orientation to match?
The article author then really steps in it with this closing paragraph:
But the movement is not without its critics, who say that the notion that modern science was revealed in the Koran confuses spiritual truth, which is constant, and empirical truth, which depends on the state of science at any given point in time.
That makes it sound like science is a dithering, undecided venture with no claim to reality, while Islam is rock steady. That’s pretty disingenuous. Science is a path from ignorance to knowledge which uses evidence and observation to understand the real, objective world. It changes as ideas get better, and ever-approaches truth. Denying reality when it goes against your scripture is not a good way to understand the real world. The phrasing of that article isn’t all that strong either way, but that in and of itself is a miscarriage of justice. Why not call things as they are? Why feel the need to equivocate?
I don’t feel that need at all.
Now, despite the claims of some commenters here, I don’t want to abolish religion, and of course it has a significant place in human discourse. But when it overlaps into scientific definitions, there is almost always going to be trouble. In this case, I don’t think much will come of it: literal Koranists can define their time zones any way they want, but good luck to them in convincing anyone else of it. Americans still haven’t even gone metric after a zillion years of trying, and time zones are far worse to change. Trust me: I got jet lag just having to think about debunking nonsense like this.
*Yes, I know that the term fundamentalist has a specific meaning for Christians, but the word has taken on the popular definition of meaning anyone who uses holy writing as literal truth. Get over it.
April 24th, 2008 at 11:28 am
I don’t think it’s abolishing all religion so much as it is continuing to expose all religions for the cultural scams that they are.
April 24th, 2008 at 11:32 am
Which is like arguing with a fortune cookie…
April 24th, 2008 at 11:38 am
Toronto is the centre of the Universe, ask any Canadian.
April 24th, 2008 at 11:42 am
It’s the longitude that is aligned with magnetic north, not the city. I take this to mean that the circle which includes the north pole, the south pole, and the magnetic north pole runs through Mecca. The location of Mecca may be more or less fixed, but the others move around measureably on the timescale of human lifetimes.
P.S. Preview eould be nice!
April 24th, 2008 at 11:48 am
Hmm…I imagine that the longitudes of a fair number of cities would align with the northern magnetic pole, depending on the time of year/decade/century.
That aside, the logistics of changing the prime meridian from Greenwich borders on the impossible. Not only would you need to convince governments to do so, you would also need to convince shipping companies and map makers the world over! Imagine, thousands, if not millions, of navigation charts instantly becoming useless! The financial investment in such a feat is something I’m sure companies would not be willing to make.
April 24th, 2008 at 11:49 am
Cory, it’s good to know we have people like you out there calling all religion “cultural scum.” It makes sure those darn religious people know where we scientific folks stand. *rolls eyes*
April 24th, 2008 at 11:52 am
An added note on how Britain forced Greenwich as the international standard…while the manner in which it happened may not be very nice, it did make navigation and communication between nations much easier. Instead of each country having their own meridian and own navigational charts and maps, complicating calculation of locations.
April 24th, 2008 at 12:00 pm
Cory said “scam”, not “scum”.
April 24th, 2008 at 12:08 pm
Well … considering just the surface of the Earth and looking at things from a “reletavistic” viewpoint, Mecca *is* at the center. Then again, so is Cleveland.
April 24th, 2008 at 12:09 pm
Dennison: Toronto is the centre of the Universe, ask any Canadian Torontonian.
Fixed that for you.
April 24th, 2008 at 12:09 pm
I used to work across the street from the Center of the Universe, in Cambridge (Massachusetts, USA). Then one day they moved it, along with the house whose yard it was in, down the street. It was very upsetting.
The Hub is still Boston, of course.
April 24th, 2008 at 12:11 pm
Forced? not very nice?
It was set by an international Conference. Before that it was widely used becaquse a large portion of the world used British Admiralty Charts as they were trhe most accurate
April 24th, 2008 at 12:14 pm
General contempt for science as such, and all other learning outside the Qurâ??Ä?n, has been the mainstream, at least in Sunni Islam, ever since Abu HÄ?med Mohammad ibn Mohammad al-GhazzÄ?lÄ« published “On the Incoherence of the Philosophers” (”philosophy”, of course, here in its older sense, including the physical sciences) in the 11th century. In the 13th century, Western Christianity, inspired by Thomas Aquinas and other Scholastic philosophers, made the decision to go the other way, on the principle that all truth is one. Thus the Renaissance in the West, and the long, drawn-out decay of the once promising Islamic culture.
April 24th, 2008 at 12:28 pm
Todd W: Britain didn’t force Greenwich as the international standard. The US called a conference (in Washington) and proposed that one of the many prime meridians used by each country should be adopted internationally. After quite a lot of discussion pretty much every country represented agreed on Greenwich (mostly because Britain had the most charts). The only real opposition was from the French - so no change there :-).
GMT was adopted for British railways then later for all legal purposes in Britain before the meridian conference. I’m not sure of the history of the adoption of GMT world-wide but it’s a pretty logical step from the adoption of the prime meridian. I suppose the implementation of GMT throughout the Empire probably helped - that’s the only aspect of the matter which could, I think, reasonably be described as “not very nice”.
April 24th, 2008 at 12:29 pm
That was my interpretation of the article as well, so I checked it. According to the NGDC, Mecca’s current magnetic declination is 2° 50′ E. That’s not large, but it’s hardly “perfect”.
April 24th, 2008 at 12:56 pm
@Captain Swoop
Thanks for the clarification. I was just using words from the article. Bad me.
April 24th, 2008 at 12:59 pm
Ian:
It’s not perfect now, but the way the poles wander it could have been at one point. This is from having seen magnetic declination shift by a fair amount in just my own lifetime.
The problem, of course, is that magnetic declination isn’t stable. The declination noted on USGS 7.5 Minute Series topo maps isn’t going to hold true today unless it’s a brand spanking new map or unless you’re very, very lucky.
April 24th, 2008 at 1:07 pm
Well, a quick historical search (that website lets you calculate past declinations as well) turns up approximately October 1918 as the last time Mecca’s magnetic declination swept past zero.
April 24th, 2008 at 1:52 pm
As I pointed out on Pharyngula, Mecca’s longitude is not even close to being aligned with either magnetic pole. Furthermore, the magnetic declination at Mecca is actually larger than at Greenwich, and growing. You can calculate this for yourself here:
http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/geomagmodels/struts/calcDeclination
April 24th, 2008 at 1:56 pm
This is splitting hairs, but –
BA said:
“Fundamentalism, in any flavor, really plays havoc with reality.”
Actually, that’s open-ended. Fundamentalism of any flavor is a return to the fundamentals. Just listen to any coach who’s had a bad year and is trying to impress fans that he’s going to turn the team around. Most of the time he will say “We’ve got to get back to the fundamentals.” Arguably, by maintaining the rigorous application of the scientific method, a person can be a Science Fundamentalist - and none of us here would think this to be a bad thing.
Obviously the fundamentals of football and the fundamentals of science are different things because they’re different pursuits. An Islamic Fundamentalist, a member of an Orthodox Jewish synagogue, and a Fundamentalist Southern Baptist are going to believe different things because the fundamentals of their faiths are different.
I disagree that there’ll always be trouble where science overlaps Fundamentalist beliefs. If you have access to a Schofield Study Bible, either the print version or on-line, check out his comments on Genesis 1. Speaking as a Fundi Christian, the first thing to do when there seems to be a conflict is to check and see if what we think the Bible says is actually there or is an assumption on our part
When my children were young, they were at first upset when a science magazine I bought them described the current theories on the formation of the sun and solar system. I pointed out that the Bible simply says that God created the Heavens and the Earth, not how He did it. Conflict resolved.
There’s really very little conflict. Despite what some think the bible says (including those who say they believe in it), the Bible advocates the use of medicine and the practice of critical thinking. It also has Paul suggesting a church send representatives to make sure donated funds were used properly - something the televangelists don’t seem to mention. Nothing in the Bible conflicts with the Big Bang theory, although some think it does.
On the very few areas where it seems to be in conflict, I remember an astronomy book called “The Stars in Their Courses,” published about a century ago. It describes the Andromeda Nebula. We now know, of course, that it’s one of a dizzying number of galaxies. Science is a process. What we know, like the fuzzy image of the Andromeda Galaxy a century ago, comes into sharper focus with better understanding. Science changes.
Maybe some think that’s a crackpot Fundi idea. If so . . . shrug. Call me a crackpot, then. I’ll still look at the planets through my small reflector telescope and support the space program. And I’ll still be a Fundi Christian. The two are not mutually exclusive.
April 24th, 2008 at 2:14 pm
Can’t spell fundamentalist without the “mental”
April 24th, 2008 at 2:35 pm
Toronto is the centre of the Universe, ask any Canadian.
I was watching Jeopardy and the answer was “If you gave Canada an enema, you’d put the hose here.” and the correct question turned out to be “What is Toronto?”
April 24th, 2008 at 3:12 pm
KC, could you offer verses where the Bible promotes critical thinking?
April 24th, 2008 at 5:41 pm
But, as everybody knows, the centre of the universe is Huddersfield.
(As immortalised by Iron Maiden in the song “The Sheriff of Huddersfield”, but I couldn’t find a website that actually had the lyrics correct [after all, there is a difference between navies and navvies that I think is important].)
April 24th, 2008 at 5:45 pm
KC said:
“Fundamentalism of any flavor is a return to the fundamentals. …”
Actually, KC, in modern usage the term “fundamentalist” has, over the last decade or two, acquired a specific meaning when referring to religion. It is no longer simply a return to fundamentals (which are what, exactly, anyway?). It is adherence to one interpretation of scripture that is at variance with reality.
April 24th, 2008 at 6:02 pm
Maybe they mean Mecca is the center of the Earth the same way that the Earth is the center of the expanding universe.
April 24th, 2008 at 7:41 pm
Daffy:
There are plenty of references - the problem is choosing which to list. The main one that came to mind was Acts 17:10-11, but it goes all the way back to Deuteronomy 18:22. Jeremiah really lit into false prophets. The account of Daniel and the prophets of Bel in the Apocrypha is a classic case of fraud detection. Christians are warned to beware of false teachers. John warned not to blindly accept what seems to be a religious revelation (1 John 4:1). When John the Baptist has some doubts, Jesus didn’t rebuke him (Matthew 11:2-5). Paul warns against false preachers in it for personal gain (Romans 16:18 and Philippians 3:18-19). And so forth and so on.
Looking both through Nave and Torray’s topical bibles, I find all sorts of references to false prophets and teachers. The idea that not all that glitters is made of gold is a strong one throughout the bible.
April 24th, 2008 at 7:42 pm
Nigel:
What are the fundamentals, you ask? Read Hobb’s “Fundamentals of Our Faith” or check out Billy Graham’s web site.
April 24th, 2008 at 8:09 pm
infidel
Can’t spell fundamentalist without the “mental”
I usually refer to ‘funny mentalists’
Posted: 14 Rabi al-Sani 1429 (Muslim calendar)
J/P=?
April 24th, 2008 at 8:32 pm
just as a came here to place a comment, the ad on the side of the page was for “singlemuslim.com, the leading muslim marrige service,” no joke i couldent have made that up. it put my back in my seat luaghing
secondly
“literal Koranists can define their time zones any way they want, but good luck to them in convincing anyone else of it”
well our lovley idiot govenor spent the first 2 years in Indy getting this state timezone change to eastern, funny last i looked we in indiana werent close to the east cost, and studies have shown that time zone change accomplished NOTHING
April 25th, 2008 at 12:50 am
Google Ads now has three separate advertisements for mulsima.com here. Somehow I suspect that isn’t going to work.
April 25th, 2008 at 2:32 am
Center Of The World is here in NE Ohio.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_of_the_World%2C_Ohio
…. and we’re not changing the signs for anyone.
April 25th, 2008 at 4:50 am
“One geologist argued that unlike other longitudes, Meccaâ??s was in perfect alignment to magnetic north.”
I addressed this issue yesterday. It turns out that the clerics are actually looking for a beach holiday.
http://lablemminglounge.blogspot.com/2008/04/do-muslim-clerics-need-holiday.html
April 25th, 2008 at 5:51 am
Correct me if I am wrong… but the iron inside the Earth’s core can’t be ionized. The core isn’t hot enough…
Regarding this “Allah’s scientist’s” views… these people are just like the web cranks that sell crystalized all-natural cowpies (purchased from aliens from Andromeda) to cure cancer and boost libido. I honestly don’t know whether to laugh or cry at this stuff. It’s almost like an April Fool’s Joke gone horribly wrong; these people make up stuff so crazy it’s unbelievable, yet its amazing how many people fall for it anyway.
Islam has a big thing against idolatry. So the next time this fellow disrespects science then perhaps someone should reciprocate by building a Flying Spaghetti Monster idol and sending it his way…
April 25th, 2008 at 7:51 am
TooSeeked
April 25th, 2008 at 8:51 am
Another important difference: Scientists don’t go around blowing themselves up on crowded buses.
April 25th, 2008 at 10:00 am
KC, my point was not actually a request for references - I was referring to the fact that, because religious faith is so subjective, the fundamentals of faith will be too. So the fundamentals will be different for different people. After all, what is most important to you may not be so important to others.
April 25th, 2008 at 10:24 am
I know. My point was to give a couple of quick references that answer your question without bogging down BA’s blog in a long theological discussion.
Short answer is that there are central beliefs held in common. Once you get beyond that things are not as clear. Fundamentalist Christianity is one huge tent. Put two Fundamentalist Christians of differing opinions together, and don’t be surprised if they start pulling out Hebrew and Greek reference books.
April 26th, 2008 at 6:53 pm
Put two Fundamentalist Christians of differing opinions together, and don’t be surprised if they start pulling out Hebrew and Greek reference books.
I’d be surprised. Most FC’s I’ve met haven’t even read the Bible.
April 27th, 2008 at 2:03 pm
Personally I believe these clerics need to.
A. Start smoking dope, Drinking Boones Farm and listening to Alice’s Restaurant.
or
B. Stop smoking dope, Drinking Boones Farm and listening to Alice’s Restaurant.
What ever works.
April 30th, 2008 at 2:12 pm
Well Western Europeans used to consider Jerusalem was the centre of the world back in Crusader days ..
Hmm … Make that old Medievela Crusaderdays not modern Iraq-war crusader days ..
April 30th, 2008 at 2:21 pm
Wrote # Lugosi on 25 Apr 2008 at 8:51 am :
“Another important difference: Scientists don’t go around blowing themselves up on crowded buses.”
Er .. in fairness though wasn’t it science that came up with the bomb -incl. the A-bomb?
A cheap shot at Islam from I’m guessing an American who knows nothing but what their own bigoted, Islamophobic Jewish-owned media tells them is neither clever, surpirsing nor funny.
Maybe a bit of deeper thought on what the Palestineans, Iraqis’ & others must be going through & how desperate and, yes, courageous they must really be would be more productive & more enlightening than the usual Arab-bashing. Just a thought eh ..?
There are good reasons why suicide bombers do what they do. NOT that it justifies them - to us - but it sure justifies it for *them.*
Understand this and then we can be better placed to prevent them - by tackling the root causes rather than just the symptoms ..Untoil we do that - there can’t be any peace.