Mar 21 2008
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Creationism, evolution, and Nazis. Yes, Nazis.
This post deals with religion, evolution, lies, and Nazis. Because of this, I am warning folks at the start: be very, very careful if and when you leave comments on this post. I will not tolerate flame wars or abuse here. Keep the discussion reasonable, rational, and evidence-based. Emotions are fine — you may notice some in my own post — but keep them controlled. Obviously, Godwin’s law will be temporarily suspended here, since reductio ad Hitlerum is the very topic of this discussion. So have a care.
I was laughing off the whole PZ-expelled-from-Expelled thing, but I’m now seeing a particularly evil side of this, a distortion so horrid I cannot keep quiet about it.
On the official Expelled website is a post that consists of an email from someone who was at the movie when PZ was evicted, and describes the movie itself. Remember, this was posted on the official Expelled site, giving it their tacit approval.
Sitting down? I hope so. The post on the Expelled website says this:
The film can best be described as subtly clever and occasionally funny. Emotions are stirred up especially built around the movies overall theme*, and many scenes especially later in the movie might be difficult to watch based on one’s ethnic and religious background.
and the footnote therein says this:
*SPOILER!! […]
Many scenes are centered around the Berlin Wall, and Ben Stein being Jewish actually visits many death camps and death showers. In fact, Nazi Germany is the thread that ties everything in the movie together. Evolution leads to atheism leads to eugenics leads to Holocaust and Nazi Germany.
Think on that for a moment. Nazism is what ties all this movie together, meaning it says that evolution leads to the cold and ruthless slaughter of millions of people.
Right from the start, this is an total and abhorrent lie. This false connection between the Holocaust and the teaching of evolution is a gross and profound twisting of reality. Creationist love to say that Hitler used evolution as an excuse for genocide, but actually he makes it clear that religion played a major role in his decisions. For example, in a 1922 speech Hitler said "My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter." Oddly, the creationists never seem to mention that.
Despite whatever reasons Hitler gave for his reasoning — and honestly, how much can we trust him? He was Hitler — that doesn’t mean that evolution leads to atheism leads to Nazis. Evolution, like all of reality, is a fact, and how we use it is independent of that reality itself. I can just as easily point out how many people have been slaughtered in the name of Jesus. Both arguments are grossly unfair when used in this manner. I can use a hammer to build a house, or to beat someone’s brains in. In what way is either the fault of the hammer?
It’s unfair to lay the blame of human faults on religion or the lack thereof. It’s how humans use or abuse these tools that’s important.
For the producers of this movie to continue this Big Lie tying evolution and Nazis together is an irony almost too big to comprehend, given that this is precisely how Nazi propaganda worked. In a rich field of creationist ironies, this may be the elephant in the room. They are projecting onto their enemies the very thing they are guilty of.
For Ben Stein to go to concentration camps and promote creationism is beyond the pale. It’s a lie, it’s ugly, and it should spark universal condemnation from every thinking human on the planet. This movie is founded on falsehoods, the producers lied to get interviews, they’ve used decidedly shady tactics to promote it, and the movie evidently has a huge lie as its very premise –a lie to which the producers themselves have admitted.
We must continue to discuss this, to air it out, to show these people for what they are. Like any noisome and foul thing you find under a rock, exposure to sunlight is the best cure.
I’m looking forward to seeing this movie, if for no other reason than to prove that my critical thinking and atheism are both the correct way for me to live my life. Neither is a requirement of the other, of course, but to me they seem to certainly link up in a very real sense.
See from His head, His hands, His feet,
Sorrow and love flow mingled down!
Did e’er such love and sorrow meet,
Or thorns compose so rich a crown?
Actually, Hitler didn’t have to go to Darwin to get inspiration for his antisemitic view. He need only have gone to a fellow German, namely the father of the Protestant Reformation himself, Martin Luther to get inspiration. The following excerpt was originally posted on Ed Braytons blog. You want antisemitism, I’ll give you antisemitism.
‘What then shall we Christians do with this damned, rejected race of Jews? Since they live among us and we know about their lying and blasphemy and cursing, we can not tolerate them if we do not wish to share in their lies, curses, and blasphemy. In this way we cannot quench the inextinguishable fire of divine rage nor convert the Jews. We must prayerfully and reverentially practice a merciful severity. Perhaps we may save a few from the fire and flames [of hell]. We must not seek vengeance. They are surely being punished a thousand times more than we might wish them. Let me give you my honest advice.
First, their synagogues should be set on fire, and whatever does not burn up should be covered or spread over with dirt so that no one may ever be able to see a cinder or stone of it. And this ought to be done for the honor of God and of Christianity in order that God may see that we are Christians, and that we have not wittingly tolerated or approved of such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of His Son and His Christians.
Secondly, their homes should likewise be broken down and destroyed. For they perpetrate the same things there that they do in their synagogues. For this reason they ought to be put under one roof or in a stable, like gypsies, in order that they may realize that they are not masters in our land, as they boast, but miserable captives, as they complain of incessantly before God with bitter wailing.
Thirdly, they should be deprived of their prayer-books and Talmuds in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught.
Fourthly, their rabbis must be forbidden under threat of death to teach any more…
Fifthly, passport and traveling privileges should be absolutely forbidden to the Jews. For they have no business in the rural districts since they are not nobles, nor officials, nor merchants, nor the like. Let them stay at home…If you princes and nobles do not close the road legally to such exploiters, then some troop ought to ride against them, for they will learn from this pamphlet what the Jews are and how to handle them and that they ought not to be protected. You ought not, you cannot protect them, unless in the eyes of God you want to share all their abomination…
To sum up, dear princes and nobles who have Jews in your domains, if this advice of mine does not suit you, then find a better one so that you and we may all be free of this insufferable devilish burden - the Jews…”
I view this as I would a “Borat” movie: entertainment not truth or dogma. Ben Stein seems to be a pretty bright guy in Economics and I enjoy his articles in the NYT. When he moves into religion he is making the same error that Shockley made — he has left his area of expertise and risks his reputation.
I seriously cannot comprehend why news like this isn’t on the front pages of every big newspaper.
At least we can thank you for taking time to expose this in a well-written manner up on your much-read blog.
Other than that, I can`t seem to muster up any other comment.
when left alone and unsupervised by the representants of the true (TM) god is a basic assumption of all religion (where I strictly want to divde between belief and religion, the latter being the organzied form of the first). Any organization is self-defending, and so this sort of argumentation is only a basic consequence of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_oligarchy . You an actually remove Hitler and replace him with anything that is considered evil, works the same.
They are using another Nazi tactic: Repeat a lie often enough and people will believe it. Sometimes pointing out these lies is enough, but I agree completely with the BA. We have to make sure as many people know about this as we can! Apathy is a weapon, and the producers are counting on it.
hey phil-
i’ve run across the organization cited by the guy who wrote the letter on the expelled site. they are very active on the university of minnesota campus, and are definitely not above spreading crap if they think it will draw in attention and converts.
funnily enough, last fall i actually wrote an op-ed for the university newspaper in response to one of this group’s campaigns which addresses pretty much the same issues that you touch on here.
here’s a link if anyone is interested.
http://www.mndaily.com/articles/2007/10/22/72163996
it’s hard to know if responding is the right thing to do, because we can never be sure if we are lending undue credibility to their arguments by engaging in them. but, given the reality of the average person’s understanding of these topics, i don’t think we can afford not to respond.
you’re right. we have to expose the b.s. for what it is, and we have to do it confidently and thoroughly. i think the expelled people are confirming the truth in this through their increasing level of panic and reaction to what we are saying.
Oops sorry, mistook the “Website” oas “post title”: Should read:
That Man is evil..
..hen left alone
This is an excellent example of the belief that if you say something loud enough and enough times, it will become true. The whole evolution-Nazi connection has been debunked repeatedly. But, here it is again.
The apparent (I have not seen the film) behavior of Stein and the producers of this flick show how immoral the fundamentalist’s (those great preachers of morality) will go to try to maintain their religion’s control on the believers.
They are literally terrified by the possibility that believers will realize that their religion is false. If you think that the scientific fact of evolution proves that your religion is false, then dump your unverifiable religion, not the tested and proven theory of evolution.
I can see a repeating pattern here, a lot of people around the net already have very strong opinions about a movie they have never seen. It’s the “Life of Brian” or “The Satanic Verses” situation all over.
I can see the dilemma though, you do not really want to support a movie by seeing it, but how do you argue intelligently (please clear the area, no puns to be seen here…) about something you haven’t seen?
To blame religion or atheism for abhorrent acts of atrocity is simply deflecting the issue. Whether Hitler was a Christian or an evolutionist is not the issue. He was simply evil. I’ve seen both sides of the coin, having been immersed in religious faith for years before stepping back from it. I have seen atheists blame religion for evil, and I have seen Christians blame atheists for everything they find morally objectionable. Both are as bad as each other.
Have people of ALL religious persuasions committed horribly evil acts in the name of their particular deity? Yes. It could be argued that most wars are fought with religious undertones.
Flip that coin. Have atheistic regimes committed unspeakable acts of evil. Yes. However, there are other factors at play, and a persons belief system is just one aspect of that. Think about this for a minute: How could so many people in Germany support a man like Adolf Hitler and his atrocities? Nazism did not start with the Holocaust. If, Hitler had come to power and the next day ordered the extermination of millions of people, the population of Germany would have revolted and he would have never succeeded. My understanding of what happened is this. (This is basic, and correct me if I am wrong.) Germany was terribly humiliated and demoralized after WW1. The money was worthless, carried in wheelbarrows, the country was in shambles and the economy totally devastated. Along comes a very charismatic leader that promises to restore Germany to her former glory. The people are thinking, “We’ve heard all this before!”
But them something happens. This leader begins to deliver his promises. He begins to promise more. Jobs are created, the economy starts to breathe. More promises are delivered. On and on it goes… Eventually, the true nature of this leader starts to show to everyone except his own people. To them he is a savior. Since he has delivered on his promises, what he is now saying will only benefit the Motherland.
Hitler could have been an atheist, a Christian or a Pastafarian. I do understand that his religious beliefs influenced him, but the point is no matter what he believed, it would have influenced him to commit the acts he did. To say, “Hitler was a Christian, therefore…”, or, “Hitler was an atheist, therefore…” is a complete fallacy.
On a similar vein, to say that all Christians are religious nut-jobs and fundamentalists because Pat Robertson, or John Hagee, or Benny Hinn are is similarly absurd.
To be sure the way people behave and act is, to some degree dictated by what they believe. Most Christians I know are fine, decent, morally responsible people. So are most atheists.
Phil:
Kudos on the correct use of “noisome” — most use it as a synonym for “noisy”.
This is a low blow. Even if it were true, I’m pretty darn sure that religion led to millions of deaths too!!
That is such a sneaky, low, blinded sentence. Whoever wrote that is a twisted person. It can’t be by accident.
Kirk:
Stein is grossly incompetent in economics. And history, for that matter. He seems to think that the New Deal caused the Great Depression (despite the historical fact that the former followed the latter, temporally).
In fact, it seems right now that Stein’s only competencies lay in being extremely boring and mildly amusing on a defunct small-stakes game show.
If you use their logic: I have a moral objection to gravity. Too many people are killed every year because of that terrible force. Vast sums of money are spend every year to overcome it. Therefore, I choose not to believe in the “Theory” of Gravity because it is morally objectionable and wasteful. And most importantly, Hitler used gravity defying machines to attack other countries, and therefore Gravity is bad.
To me, it is entirely superfluous whether any scientific theory describing some part of nature leads to anything. Reality is was it is, and just because you don’t like it, it doesn’t mean it’s not true.
I’m sure this has been said a few million times already. Is this impossible for creationists to understand?
Anybody who know anything knows that Hitler was a Christian.
Regarding Hitler’s Christianity, check out:
http://www.answers.org/apologetics/hitquote.html
The first quote attributed to Hitler:
“National Socialism and religion cannot exist together…. The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity’s illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity…. Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. ”
Source: Hitler’s Secret Conversations 1941-1944
Wikipedia also sheds some light on the issue:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_religious_beliefs
You’ve gotta check out this interview with Ben Stein on Pat Robertson. Skip the first four minutes (it’s an economic discussion). Right at four minutes in, the first thing that Ben Stein says about “Darwinism” is that it enjoins its adherents to commit genocide. This is a type of slander that I’ve been noticing that the godless Atheists have NOT been using on blogs and in articles all around the intertubes. Good work guys!
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1262366419219049286&q=expelled+%22ben+stein%22&total=71&start=0&num=10&so=1&type=search&plindex=3
Michelle:
Religion has led to millions of deaths. So what? (I’m no fan of religion.) Religious people will point right back at you and say the same about atheists. (Chairman Mao, anyone? Maybe a little Stalin with your fries?) Religion or atheism does not make a monster. It can influence one, to be sure. As I said before, Hitler could have believed anything or nothing and he would have still been Hitler.
The question I have is what went wrong in the lives of these individuals to make them do what they did? Atheists will say that is was because of religion. Religious people will blame the devil. Neither of these assumptions is the whole truth. Most people will fall into one of two categories, those that believe in a deity or deities, and those that do not. Which are the better people?
People on both sides like to point at individuals like Hitler, or Stalin to make their points. I believe these people (Hitler, and others) are the exception rather than the rule. We ALL need to stop pointing fingers at one another, and connecting non existent dots assuming that because someone believes in a god, it will logically lead to mass genocide. If a person does not believe in god, it will lead to mass genocide.
There is a place for logical, reasonable discussion, but illogical conclusions need to be rejected by rational people on both sides.
Hitlers Christian quotes can be cherry picked as can his pagan quotes and athiest quotes. He was a friggin NUTCASE! He clearly had a few mental disorders and for people on either side to assume he was acting as a rational human being is just plain idiotic.
Like Chris Rock said, “What ever happened to CRAZY???”
Above and beyond the offensiveness of the claim is that the movie is supposed to be a documentary about academic freedom, censorship, and “big science” stepping on the necks of the poor ID scientists. So just what does the whole “evolution=genocide” canard have to do with it? It’s a complete non-sequitor obviously included just to stir up emotions against scientists.
*shakes head* No, it’s not about Christianity, and it’s not about atheism. A murderer will use whatever is convenient to justify murder. A thief will use whatever is convenient to justify theft.
It’s the same with Hitler. It’s the same with Stein.
While I’m not clear on Hitler’s religious stances, what I am sure of is that Hitler’s religion (or lack thereof) did not cause the Holocaust. Hitler caused the Holocaust. Everything else is simply an attempt to justify it.
Religion did not cause the Crusades. It did not cause 9/11 and other acts of terrorism. Religion was used to “justify” them. (That said, the behavior of the people depicted in their religious texts don’t make “justification” all that much of a stretch. And that’s as far as I’m going to go in terms of value judgement.)
My point is this: Stein is a liar. This Mark Matthis also-ran is a liar. But their religion didn’t cause them to lie. They did that all by themselves. And they perverted their own religious values in a cynical attempt to justify their own unethical behavior.
Phil, I am actually not too worried about this: according to the NYT article linked to in a comment on your previous post, profssional movie critic Roger Moore said the movie is rather poorly made. If this is indeed the case, and the Nazi overtones are as strong as we are led to believe, this may be a blessing in disguise. Think about it: bringing up Hitler, or the Nazis, in a discussion is generally considered the last straw of a losing debater. It is used when all other arguments have failed. Like most people posting here, I have not seen the movie, but this may very well backfire in a glorious way…
Um . . . How can I put this . . . The Theory of Evolution provided an excuse for those who were already convinced they were “superior” to say they had scientific backing.
Now, before anyone goes ballistic, let me repeat the key point: “. . . an excuse for those who were already convinced they were ’superior.’”
Please note that history records evidence of this prior to “On the Origin of Species.” I’m reluctant to repeat some of the things that were said in the 19th Century - even by people such as Lincoln - but a little research should uncover it for those interested. This was a case of a conviction looking for “scientific” support, and the Theory of Evolution was seized as such.
The results was “rationalization” of bigotry and worse. Some involved in the genocide of the Tazmanians used it. It was the “rationalization” behind Eugenics - which, BTW, started long before Hitler’s rise to power and outside of Germany, to boot. And some, I’m sorry to say, thinking they were being very “progressive” and “scientific,” bought into it without thinking. Even Oliver Wendell Holmes, who certainly had the brains to know better, seems to have subscribed to it to some degree (based on a letter he penned to a friend).
That’s generally forgotten now. What happened in WWII was so horrific that it brought support for Eugenics to a well deserved end. Some don’t realize that the U.S. had quite a few supporters of Eugenics prior to Hitler’s rise to power, just as some might be shocked to learn there was once widespread Antisemitism in the U.S.
The history is there for anyone who cares to look. Since the concept was already floating around prior to the Theory of Evolution, then the idea that Eugenics sprang from it in full form is not quite true. However, the Theory of Evolution did provide so-called “justification” for those who already believed some races were more superior to others. And while that’s not the fault of the theory, I think we should keep in mind that it did happen - and many at the time thought this justification was “scientific.” This despite the fact had not submitted their basic premise to the scientific method.
@Michael: Uhh, yea, that was my point. That it’s just a ping-pong game; they made a sneaky statement that can be overturned. Ô_o What’s up? What are you pointing at me for?
Chango,
Again, I ask, “So what?” (BTW that is debatable as he made many statements that contradict each other, which I believe was a symptom of whatever was driving his insanity.) Once again, someone is making the assumption, unspoken as it is, that since Hitler was a Christian, Christianity made him a monster. I just don’t make that connection.
If I like to look at nude pictures, I guess I’m a rapist. Is that a logical statement? Some people who look at porn are rapists. That is more of a logical and accurate statement (It’s way more complicated than that - but I’m keeping it basic for arguments sake.)
Thanny:
Stein has made his mark in movies in Ferris Buehler with his HS teacher role: “Anyone, anyone?”. The small stakes game show you cite may have been the beginning of the end.
Boys & girls — I’m outta here — preparing to bite the ears off of the chocolate easter bunnies; a family tradition.
Best to all!!
i think Michael Lonerganon wins the Ballonga Detetion kit awards for the topic
As with the rest of us, I will make the caveat that all I know about this movie is what has been stated in this post, the movie’s website, and the other various links and discussion threads this topic has propogated… but since this has been stated on the movies official website without refutation, I’m going to assume it is correct.
Having said that… if this is true, and the film does in fact attempt to directly tie the teaching of evolution to naziism… even if the film just covertly INSINUATES this… I mean, this is deplorable bevavior… for ANY group; creationists, evolutionists, buddhist monks or sub-prime lenders.
I am appalled and a bit queezy, if this proves to be accurate. And the danger here more than anything is that this movie will speak to not only the far right wing IDers and creationists, but it will also reach the mainstream Christian… and this is when, I think, things will get really interesting, because, my friends, THAT’S the big crowd right there. Up till now this issue has been kept (mainly) in the far-right corners of the Fundamentalist movement, in places like the Disco ‘tute. But this movie is going to have a wide release with a known name behind it (Stein). And its going to get alot of attention I think.
The movie appears to be sneaky in its tactics in making this an issue of free speech, and then (apparently) disgustingly sneaks in comparisons between the teaching of evolution and naziism. Now this SHOULD sicken and concern any rational thinking person who sees it, but the truth is, I’m not sure it will. Will the public reject that comparison as it rightfully should? Will they see the fallacy? Will they see this for what it is: a nasty propaganda ploy to push the IDist agenda?
The hopeful human in me hopes we will… the realist in me fears we won’t. And the question is… THEN what happens? If the IDists are able to convince the general American Public (or, more pointedly, the huge number of moderate Christians) that in fact, teaching evolution will lead to a nazi state, what the heck happens then? *shudder*.
IMHO, someone needs to do something to counter this piece of work, and QUICKLY. We need to get the word out, and NOT just here in the comfy confines of the blogosphere. Someone needs to get the facts out to the mainstream… in a widely seen forum… someone like the “Mythbusters” guys (just as an example of a medium that I think would fit within a “mainstream” framework).
Sorry for the long ramble here… but I needed to unload my thoughts so I could focus again. Thanks.
@Michelle, how true. I learned a saying once, “When you point at someone else, look at your own hand. How many fingers are pointing back at you?” Sadly most people don’t think that way.
BTW ROFL at my last post. It contains 2 words, p##n and n##e. My post was snagged by a special filter warning that it may not be posted immediately!
BA is such a prude!
Actually I do understand why that filter is there and it’s a good thing.
I find this particularly interesting because I live in West TN, and there is this racist guy here named James Hart running for office with eugenics as his platform. He was at our town’s court square last week with a big sign reading” Equal Rights for Whites.” He’s not getting very far (thank goodness), but a few years back he did slip through the cracks enough to run for a seat I think in the senate on the Republican ticket, though the republicans disavowed him in the end. As a moderate Christian who does believe in both evolution and God, and seeks understanding between science and faith I find people like him to be attention seeking crackpots. Still eugenics is out there and some people are responding to this guy. Stein’s conclusions may be wrong, possibly intentionally so, but more needs to be said by people of science on why Darwinism should not lead to the idea that one race is superior to others from an evolutionary perspective. I mean, this guy is literally saying that there are “poverty genes” and “favored races.” He’s a wacko, but he can attract a following from scared working class white guys who aren’t using their brains. Deal with the root issue, eugenics first. Then Stein will have nothing left to say.
It’s worth noting in large typeface that the death camp guards, SS troops, and the general run of Hitler’s armed forces were predominantly Catholics or Lutherans. The question is not so much about Hitler as it is about those who actually carried out Hitler’s policies. They were almost all Christians. Without all those good Christians to execute his policies, Hitler would have been nothing.
Blu_ray,
A ballonga detection kit - should I be pleased or….
i agree with Pieter Kok about not seeing the movie to know its trash, i dont need to (and wont) see the inconvieniant truth to know global warming is real and we as a species should change our ways to deal with it. i dont need to study all of newtons and einstein’s works to know gravity works. reality is waht is is, people can act all they want like the hear-no-evil, see-no-evil monkeys screaming “lala i cant hear you rational explanations of the universe, lalala”
@Michael Lonergan: “@Michelle, how true. I learned a saying once, “When you point at someone else, look at your own hand. How many fingers are pointing back at you?” Sadly most people don’t think that way.”
That’s why I point in the military fashion.
Michael, the Demon Huanted world by Carl Sagan, please tell me youve read it, your first post sounds like you are a master at disection the post hoc ergo proctor hoc argument (this cuase happend therefore that effect followed it)
“Hitler was a Christian, therefore…”, or, “Hitler was an atheist, therefore…” is a complete fallacy”
The word “pogrom” long predates the works of Darwin; anti-semetic massacres occurred long before the Nazis came to power, and in more countries than Germany.
Associating atheism with the Holocaust is a cheap rhetorical trick, not reasoned thinking; it would be just as cheap to say Christianity was responsible because German soldiers wore a belt buckle stamped with “God is with us” during the war.
Ben Stein is a sloppy scholar and a wingnut, as are the others of the Discovery Institute and the backers of this appalling work of propaganda called “Expelled”.
— Steve
I guess you haven’t seen Borat, then?
Blu-Ray-Ven, that is not quite what I was saying in my previous comment, but you are right that we don’t have to see the movie to know it is full of nonsense. However, in order to address the specific nonsense in the movie, you definitely do need to see it.
The Anti-Defamation League nailed James D. Kennedy to the wall for pulling the same Darwin–>’HOLOCAUST OMFG!!’ crap.
http://www.adl.org/PresRele/HolNa_52/4877_52.htm
I suggest everyone contact them about EXPELLED.
ERV, it sounds like PZ and Richard Dawkins can make a strong case that they are in the same position as Francis Collins in that James D. Kennedy movie.
Aerimus, so did Hitler
(At least a form of military salute, anyway!)
Blu ray, haven’t read it yet. On my to-do list for this year.
BTW, congrats on winning the war. HD DVD was so lame.
Did anyone else see Stein on my favorite serious journalist’s talk show recently? (The Glenn Beck Show.) Beck was his usual jolly self, agreeing with every word Stein uttered. Blaming the liberal media for all the world’s ills - you know, the usual Beck stuff…
@Blu-Ray-Ven:
Just FYI, it’s “post hoc ergo propter hoc”, and it literally translates to “after this, therefore because of this”, which is not quite the same as what you wrote.
I’m not sure whether to see this movie or not. It’s the same feeling I got when I drove past the Discovery Institute’s Creation Science Museum on the way home from a long road-trip vacation this summer. (by the way, Phil, I *love* how you call them the Disco ‘Tute. Conjures images of Donna Summer and drunken Karaoke.)
What’s the sense in me spending money on a cause I vehemently disagree with, to view something that’s clearly going to get me all riled up?
Unless enough critical spotlight gets on this movie, it’s going to do its job, which is to convince people that it’s a debate about academic freedom. Shouldn’t both sides be taught, people will ask. I know several people in my personal and professional lives who think this way.
Quite some die-hard Christians act as Nazis themselves. Brainwashing children to blindly believe and obey a mythical figure and a doctrine without any doubt, the pure, utter hatred of minorities that do not fit in Utopia, and there are even folks who are drooling over the idea that a big worldwide bloodshed is due. Introducing their savior.
Blind faith in ideologies makes me sick to the stomach. This primitive group/clan behavior is responsible for organized crime on a major scale. It happened thousands of years ago, it happens now. This behavior can lead to Nazism, to Stalin-like communist dictatorships, to Khmer Rouge as well as any religious group fanaticism. And guess what, this group behavior once had evolutionary advantages. In a primitive world where hardly anything was known or understood this behavior led to strong group binding.
Sorry, but these ID people act as if they’re addicted to some dangerous drugs which invoke brain damage, lower intelligence, delusions, blind spots, memory loss and so on.
What has taken me away from religion (Christianity in particular), is not religion itself, but those who misunderstand it and abuse it. Secondary to that is how they misinterpret or purposefully change facts or other views outside of religion (I’m thinking broadly in terms of science).
What could be so important - what needs to be gained - that it is worth lying about?
As far as I have seen, the flip side is that I hear of very intolerant atheists, which is unfortunate. However, it seems that they are at least not spreading horrendous lies as some “Christians” do.
Carriep, you can go to a local screening in a church: You won’t have to pay, and you can discuss the movie with the congregation afterwards, thus providing an antidote.
Just so I understand, let’s pretend I’m really slow, the argument here is that since the idea of evolution caused a government to wipe out 6 million people, the idea itself is unsound and of no merit?
I love that.
Using that logic, since some people use guns to commit crimes, we should get rid of all guns in the world.
Or, since some people use the computer to troll for young children, we should destroy all computers.
Or, since some people drink and drive, we should ban all cars.
Or, since some men beat their wives, we should ban all men.
My response to this argument is SO FREAKIN’ WHAT if every Nazi believed in evolution? How does that matter?
Whoa, whoa, whoa - “They are projecting onto their enemies the very thing they are guilty of.”
1. Be very careful tossing out verbal grenades like “enemies.” The Nazis were enemies of the Jews. The jihadists are enemies of the West. Hamas is the enemy of Israel. Enemies are out to destroy each other.
Creationists and evolutionists are (or should be) opponents. Opponents seek to persuade their opponents, not destroy them.
2. If Stein is saying that believing in evolution leads to Naziism (I’m taking your word for it as I haven’t seen the film), then you’re saying - quite literally - that doubting evolution leads to Nazism. That argument is beyond ludicrous, and simply proves Godwin’s Law.
3. Don’t assume that if one has doubts about the generalizability of variation within species to variation between phyla, or that one thinks that Life is more than the result of random collisions of molecules, that one is automatically stupid, ignorant, and venal.
@Corrie:
BA made no such claim. He said that the producers of this movie are using Nazi-like tactics and projecting the same. Where do you get “doubting evolution leads to Nazism” out of that?
[…] (suddenly not laughing) - read this: WTF?? Posted in Blogs, Comedic Relief, Entertainment, Personal, Politics, Science […]
What is ballonga?
I used to buy into the Religion Kills More Than Atheism debate, but I heard some great arguments against using the argument at all. It is essentially irrelevant because it is neither religion nor atheism that causes the deaths. It is a suppression of critical inquiry. With Stalin it was State as Religion, as it was with Japan pre-WW2. What it comes down to is a state suppressing critical attacks on its activities using religion or ideology.
Another mistake these people make is to assume that atheism is an ideology or philosophy. It is merely a clearing of the ground (to paraphrase Bob Price). Atheists are just people who dont’ believe in any gods. That’s it. Stalin was an atheist, but what he did was force people to accept the State in God’s place.
As for the evolution leads to genocide argument others here have dealt with that perfectly.
Reductio ad absurdum is a good way to counter that. You just take another theory (I liked the theory of gravity one) like relativity and go from there. What about heliocentrism? Now that’s a source for immorality.
Let´s see… if, as creationists like to claim, evolution can be reduced to “survival of the fittest”, this provides an interesting twist.
After all, Hitler did NOT survive, nor did the NSDAP or the Thousand-Year Reich. So, obviously, they were not the fittest. Shouldn´t it be, then, that “evolution leads to NO Hitler”?
Speaking of Hitler, he definitely WAS Catholic. About two years or so ago, as a reaction to some fundie bringing that old canard up, I asked an acquaintance who is a notary working for the office of the local archbishop of the Catholic church. She said that the ONLY was to stop being Catholic, once you´re baptised, is to be excommunicated. Hitler was never excommunicated, he had been baptized, so he must have been Catholic.
Tom, while agree that some people act this way, my experience has taught me that most people of faith abhor this type of behavior. It is the charismatic leaders, whether they lead countries or churches that breed fanaticism. John Hagee, pastor of a 10,000+ church in Texas is one of the scariest individuals around. I challenge anyone to show me where Jesus taught what this guy is telling his flock. The problem is, his flock takes what he says without checking the book he is perverting. If they actually read it for once, I mean really read it critically, they would have a far different view of things. Now, think about Hitler again. He spewed all kinds of things. People just took it all in without actually thinking about what he was saying. It’s the same pattern. Cult leaders do the same thing. If you tell someone something enough they will eventually believe it.
Eugenics has also been brought up in this thread. Eugenics is not just a Nazi concept. It was Government policy in Alberta, Canada until, I believe the 1960’s. Mentally handicapped individuals were forcefully sterilized, all with government approval.
Corrie Bergeronon: Creationists and evolutionists are (or should be) opponents. Opponents seek to persuade their opponents, not destroy them.
Should be. “Enemies” was Mark Matthis’s word in any case. They opened that door. It’s not wrong for Phil to paraphrase them using their own word.
2. If Stein is saying that believing in evolution leads to Naziism (I’m taking your word for it as I haven’t seen the film), then you’re saying - quite literally - that doubting evolution leads to Nazism. That argument is beyond ludicrous, and simply proves Godwin’s Law.
You’re committing both the strawman and the false dichotomy fallacies. In any case, this assumption is solely yours. Nobody (other than you) is saying, suggesting, or otherwise implying any such thing.
3. Don’t assume that if one has doubts about the generalizability of variation within species to variation between phyla, or that one thinks that Life is more than the result of random collisions of molecules, that one is automatically stupid, ignorant, and venal.
Again, this is your assumption, not ours. While all three reasons are demonstrably behind some folks being factually wrong, none follow automatically by any stretch, and nobody but you seems to be suggesting that.
None of this changes the facts, however, that Stein and Matthis are lying. And not just little lies, but big whopping lies. They’re lying to us, to PZ Myers, to Dawkins, to christians, and to you. And that should be of far more concern to you than anything said in the heat of this thread.
It’s not unfair to criticize Christianity *or* scientists for the slaughters that have been carried out in their name.
Christianity is at the very least a philosophical view on how life should be led, like Marxism, capitalism, socialism, atheism etc. etc. We can’t be certain of the intent of the founders of all these philosophies, but they can be fairly judged by their results.
In fact, a responsible scientist should be prepared to admit that even science can be abused and misused. Even when the science is correct, there is sometimes a potential for the misuse of the resulting technologies. (Any science fiction fan could have told you that!)
There *is* room for a meaningful discussion of the collusion of some German scientists with the Nazis. However, I doubt this film sheds any light on the issue. It sounds like they were more interested in using the Holocaust as a completely inappropriate metaphor for the fact that modern biology departments don’t want to hire people who are completely ignorant of their field.
Chaos, that argument doesn’t hold water. That is the misguided view of the church. An individual can be born Catholic, Baptized Catholic, as I was, and later leave the Church and join another church, as I did, and then eventually leave church all together as I did. Am I still a Catholic? I suppose, since I have never been excommunicated, in the eyes of the Church institution I am, but as far as I am concerned, how can I be if I no longer believe it? That argument makes as much sense as the old argument that goes like this:
John: Are you a Christian?
Billy: Of course I am a Christian!
John: How do you know?
Billy: Because I was born in America (or some other Western Christianized nation.)
That is an argument used by many.
Maybe BA will like this better: I have a telescope so I’m an Astronomer. (It just happens to be pointed at my neighbor’s window most nights!
)
A Christian is a “Christ-follower”, someone dedicated to His teachings. Hitler didn’t fit that bill.
phil the responce filter isnt working right, certain words are getting through
Goodness.
It seems the fans of Expelled have found this website.
i cant wait till phil gets on a realizes the abuse and removes it, though posts like mine and jarrod’s above will seem odd
for future viewers of this thread, certain dimwits were putting not so nice words on the responce thread
For much of history, adherents of Abrahamic religions (and probably others as well) could point to verses in their holy book, and justify nearly anything, be it a “good” or an “evil”. And once they found their justification, their action or belief inherently has the blessing of their god, and therefore in their mind is good and true and ethical.
Now those same people are applying their logic to those without religious belief, such that they can now say, see the evil atheist is using Darwin as their own justification for evil. Theists equate The Origin of Species as the atheist’s Bible. They say that Nazis used evolution as a justification for the atrocities committed against the human race. Unfortunately, for the theists, applying evolution in such a matter is a misinterpretation of what evolution really is. Evolution is a fact of what has already and is currently happening to all manner of animals and species. It isn’t a belief system or an ideology on how to create your perfect animal. It merely is.
A true atheist, by definition, would never deify a human, to put that persons ideas, thoughts, and well being, as inerrant, or perfect. Theists however, put God so far above themselves and others, that it is impossible to reason or argue with them, a perfect omniscient god is difficult to argue with.
Unfortunately, an evil person will do what they wish regardless of how they were brought up or what they believe in. They will simply shape their beliefs to fit their own ends and purposes. A theist would use the framework of their religion, and an atheist would use the framework of their science. We have to get beyond tallying death counts in columns in a spreadsheet, and declaring the one with the lower number as the more ethical winner. We need to confront issues of ethics and morality head on with reason. And it’s my belief, that theists who believe in an inerrant god, can’t be reasoned with by a secular atheist. One can only hope that they listen to their more reasoned clergy.
Logicbit, well I don’t think that is the way to go about it. It just stoops down to their level and makes you look rather silly.
Blu-ray, what words? It nailed me for the use of p**n and N**e earler, but allowed me to post.
To Blu-Ray-Ven
Unfortuante we have to put up with children abusing a friendly blog. I’m sure BA will remove them soon.
Thanks BA for a thought provoking topic and getting rid of the name calling abusers.
I can see the dilemma though, you do not really want to support a movie by seeing it, but how do you argue intelligently (please clear the area, no puns to be seen here…) about something you haven’t seen?
And people say that piracy is a bad thing…
“I can see the dilemma though, you do not really want to support a movie by seeing it, but how do you argue intelligently (please clear the area, no puns to be seen here…) about something you haven’t seen?”
Well, PZ tried to see it and look at what happened to him! Hey, lets get Phil and PZ to make a silly movie, and hire thugs to pick people out of the line up! That’ll teach ‘em!
Thanks, BA, for discussing this on your blog. I find the whole Ben Stein and Expelled movie tactics to be abhorrent regarding such a serious subject as evolution. Expelled has taken the issue of academic freedom and made a mockery of itself, but unfortunately people out there repeat their repugnant lies. Maybe not a lot in the whole population, but enough to be concerned and enough to realize that some people turn lies into crimes by hurting others. Making a trail from evolution to the Holocaust is repugnant in this day and age - Stein and friends should be ashamed of themselves.
One sickening thing about discussions about Nazi crimes is that it is rare the other victims are mentioned. Peoples such as Romas, Poles, Slavs, Soviet prisoners of war, pacifists, gays, disabled people, mental patients and many others were sent to the concentration camps too. Although the exact figures may forever remain unknown, it is possible that at least half of the victims were not Jews. They don’t have memorials like the one in Berlin. To illustrate the issue, everyone knows what “Holocaust” means, but how many of you have heard of the Porajmos?
Melusine said:
“Making a trail from evolution to the Holocaust is repugnant in this day and age - Stein and friends should be ashamed of themselves.”
It is similar to those that deny the holocaust ever happened, although I realize it does not evoke that level of emotion. The fact is, both ideas are objectionable on a number of grounds.
I am curious as to how much the Nazi-Evolution theme is played out, because I thought this was a movie about Id “scientists” being discriminated against. I don’t recall Stein even mentioning the Nazi-evolution connection on the Glenn Beck show he was on. Not that that surprises me, after all, you wouldn’t want to let the cat out of the bag about that, now would you, Mr. Stein?
It is possible that the creationists overdo themselves and become the target of ridicule. However, if they are able to strengthen and spread the “from atheism to Nazism” meme, the future may turn out to be rather nasty for an atheist. Education and popular culture play both important roles here.
“I can use a hammer to build a house, or to beat someone’s brains in. In what way is either the fault of the hammer?”
That is the most eloquent rebuttal I’ve ever heard to that insipid argument. Please consider it stolen.
Kullat,
I believe that there are some other memorials around. I read that there was a memorial for gays who were killed somewhere in Europe, I think. Isn’t this where the Pink Triangle symbol originated? I think that’s how the Nazi’s labeled gays, is it not?
If God is all-powerful, why did he allow the Nazis to rise to power in the first place?
Here’s the article, in part:
“The design of a memorial dedicated to the thousands of gay men killed in the Holocaust was unveiled Thursday in Berlin.
The memorial, which is set to be built in the coming weeks, was revealed on the eve of Friday’s international Holocaust Memorial Day.
The design is the first time the German capital has an official memorial to gay victims of Nazi persecution, although memorials are already established in Amsterdam and San Francisco.”
Several of the earlier posts say something along the lines of “Ben Stein is on solid ground with his economics, but this ID stuff is crazy.” Whether or not we agree with Stein’s brand of Chicago-school econ, I think there’s a real phenomenon at work here.
For the conservative movement in the last quarter century or so, free-market economic arguments have been a major way of establishing their credentials as rationalistic, realistic, and practical, as opposed to fuzzy-headed liberal wishful thinking. Whether or not we agree with that assesment, it has had a lot of impact.
So what, exactly, is going on with the right’s efforts to claim irrationality and pseudoscience as their moral high ground? WHY is Stein making this movie, when he could be making “Regulated: No enterprise allowed.”? Does he really believe that ID is the horse to bet on, politically speaking, and if so, why?
I have to assume that people like Stein are sincere in their beliefs, but it is very hard for me to believe that the collective intelligence of the right–a movement that can produce people like Hayek or Friedman or Kissinger–believes that God decided to give men nipples just for wacky fun.
So what is the real motive?
I’ve recently come to the conclusion that fundamentalists aren’t happy unless they have something to be afraid of. First it was the Commies, and now it is the Muslims, but life for them isn’t complete without a domestic enemy to quiver and quake over, and hence they constantly cry wolf about those evil lefty, secular, evolutionists wanting to take all their rights away.
Frankly, it’s all too pathetic. They are still a powerful political bloc in this country making up a good third of the population while their brethren over in Europe are a struggling tiny minority that nobody pays any attention to. Yet who is it who does all the whining and wingeing about being persecuted and oppressed? Yeah, it’s the lily livered fundamentalists of America who never seem to realize exact how good they have it.
This absolutely sickens me… It is because of religion, or difference in religion, which is pretty much the same, that the Nazis slaughtered 6 million of my kind. And now these people try to use this story, which probably better then anything else can be used to support atheism, to try and sell the very ideals that led to this atrocity in the first place.
Lugosi, the Christian would simply answer that with a statement like this:
“God allows man to choose. He gave us a free will. He doesn’t want robots for followers.” (Almost choked typing that last part!)
It really misses the point though. It’s not God we should be pointing the finger at, it is the individual that perpetrated such atrocity. All those questions do is enable the blame shifting.
Count me among those who welcome whatever publicity Expelled receives. I sincerely hope that it becomes the cultural sensation of the season.
From the start, this movement has yearned to be part of mainstream social conservatism. You know, Protect the Unborn, Preserve Marriage, Teach the Controversy. They haven’t been very successful. Although the occasional ID piece appears in conservative opinion journals, invariably the author is a Discovery Institute fellow. Intellectually respected social conservatives (say, a Leon Kass or Dinesh D’Souza) have, to date, remained silent. Understandably. As a political liberal, I don’t have much to say about the 9/11 truth gang, either.
But if Expelled makes ID a bigger part of the national conversation, conservative intellectuals will find it more difficult to ignore, and I am fairly confident that they will meet it with disdain. There may be some suggestion that ID can be seen as a reaction to the godless academy and blahblahblah, but I wouldn’t expect to see any real respect for their deceit.
Not having received, over the past decade, the attention they thought they deserved (apparently, allying themselves with Ann Coulter didn’t cut it), these folks have decided to stake a gamble on total outrage. I really look forward to seeing it played out.
So the “Christians” who made this movie had to lie to make it? To get their interviews? To make their spurious points about creationism?
And this makes Christianity look good how?
Michael Lonerganon said:
Melusine said:
“Making a trail from evolution to the Holocaust is repugnant in this day and age - Stein and friends should be ashamed of themselves.”
>>>It is similar to those that deny the holocaust ever happened, although I realize it does not evoke that level of emotion. The fact is, both ideas are objectionable on a number of grounds.
I totally agree, and I defend the right for people to say what they want no matter how repugnant and those who deny the thousands of pictures or people with numbers on their arms are every bit as awful. It’s just that these attacks on science and atheists right now, along with Creationists wanting to water down science, is the matter of concern on an astronomy site and with those who are pro-science. I think (as with other topics) these things should be pointed out so people will think before falling prey to them - whether it’s about anti-gay, anti-Semitic, anti-history or just plain anti-reality.
Michael - does not matter whether Hitler was Christian or not (hey, my wife is Christian!), but some people are claiming that he was an atheist, and he was not.
And, my, I had no idea Ben Stein was of the Chicago school of economics: one less point in his favor (imho).
What’s with the Chicago school of economics? Just curious.
Some folks posting here want their Christianity to be nice, tidy and pure. The fact is Hitler was a Christian as were many of his followers (and enemies,) and Hitler’s regime incorporated church rituals into Nazi ideology, combining them with romanticized Pagan and Teutonic mythology to create large public ceremonies for the drama and psychological effect on the masses. He co-opted Christianity into his politics and schemes. As was pointed out, this doesn’t mean Christianity leads to Hitler and neither does any scientific theory lead to Hitler. But religious fervor can be co-opted and politicized. There are many good people who are Christians, but being a Christian does not make someone a good person.
If the atrocities of Pol Pot were more well-known to the Western general public, the film makers of “Expelled” would likely be equating evolution theory and scientific standards with leading to the Cambodian killing fields. Their actual goal is the vilification of critical and liberal thinking. (There’s even a ridiculous new book out that has made a brief splash on the NY Times best seller list claiming that Liberals are fascists.) The far rightwing is looking around for any way to vilify critical thinking because ultimately ID and fundamentalist religion are political movements that want to foster unquestioning support, controlled and justified by superstition. Ironic isn’t it? Fortunately, there are always rational, thoughtful people around. Let’s hope they don’t become an extreme minority.
Of course Darwin’s theory did not lead to facism, and even if it had (which it didn’t) it would be irrelevant, as current evolutionary theory has progressed way beyond Darwin’s ideas. And even if it had (which it didn’t), that would not say anything about its truth value.
What I often do notice is that many decently educated people either believe in Social Darwinism or believe that Social Darwinism is in some way related to Darwin and/or the Theory of Evolution. This is very annoying and the implications are clear: we must spend more time teaching the Theory of Evolution.
> He need only have gone to a fellow German
[Hitler was born in Austria]
My husband points out that the whole “Big Science” thing is reminiscent of the series “V” - which also, ironically, uses Holocaust imagery. Has anyone checked to see if creationists are lizards underneath? That would explain their objection to evolutionary theory, bein’ as the lizards got out-competed an’ all. Anyhow, he proposes that creationists should henceforward be referred to as “Visitors”, on account of the anti-science propaganda that was the hallmark of that species.
Still surfing the topic, but this is the best post so far, noting the irony but also the insidious (well, noisome) reactions that build on the very mockery of logic and moral the movie does.
This situation isn’t symmetrical, as the comment implicitly shows here.
There has never been an atheist regime, people are conflating them with communistic regimes. These have at times been repressive of religion but don’t build on an atheistic agenda. They can’t, atheism is only an absence of belief, not a full socio-political program for political control nor an absence of common morals.
[An irony is that communism is very much a faith, as it doesn’t seem to work in practice.]
It is arguable if one should blame a movement for its leaders, but it is an interaction. Hitler played on religion and other social movements, and whether he believed in them doesn’t matter. What matter is that both sides, politicians and movements, shared responsibility for the historical outcome.
But the comment is correct on one thing, this isn’t the specific issue at hand.
Research on “Deutsche Physik” is in order. Putting ideology before reason, the Nazi’s rejected what they considered Einstein’s “Jewish Physics” because it didn’t mesh with the mythologies to which they were beholden. Does this sound familiar?
(excuse the apostrophe error)
The Theory of Evolution provided an excuse for those who were already convinced they were “superior” to say they had scientific backing.
Right, the other large elephant in the room is that it couldn’t provide this backing.
As regards eugenics IIRC Darwin himself pointed out the problem with continuous artificial selection for traits. Loss of variance (”selective sweeps”) means less raw material for evolution to work on in case the environment changes, say by introduction of new diseases. His theory explains why eugenics isn’t evolution nor a good politics.
And I notice the irony that recent research has been published showing that human culture has subjected us for intense selection since 40 ka, and especially the last 10 ky.
The double irony is that the author starts off with noting why population growth and association by linkage disequilibrium (”[a]s a new positively selected allele increases in frequency in a population, it is initially linked to a wide region”, resulting in selective sweep), not specific selection pressures, is the main factor behind this evolution:
Sorry, copy and paste removed the blockquote in my previous comment:
I think lying for Jesus must be a great temptation for the true believer. After all, when they do, they must be convinced that
a) they’re doing it for a worthy cause, and
b) they will be forgiven for their sins (again?).
Why should we be surprised when they violate any of their principles? It seems an unavoidable side-effect of their faith.
Some fight it better than others.
The “Expelled” producers have failed. Epic Fail.
In the movie version of “The Hunt for Red October,” Sean Connery has the following line: “There is room in Tupolev’s heart only for Tupolev.” Which may best describe Hitler. His declassified OSI psychological profile can be found on-line and makes for interesting - if disturbing - reading. Hitler had a pattern of latching onto someone and, when they turned out to have clay feet, thinking that he himself must do the job. At one time Hitler fancied that he would become a monk. He attended a seminary before he was kicked out. The religious convictions he had were apparently subject to change without notice. It is known that he at least once referred to “The Christian Problem,” and that he considered it something to be dealt with after his “Final Solution.”
Which doesn’t mean Hitler was above using existing German beliefs and prejudices to achieve his goals. Antisemitism already existed in varying degrees in Germany, and it’s true that many of those who served were Lutherans and Roman Catholics. Yet it does not follow that the antisemitism was a result of Christian belief. If it was, then what are we to make of Christians who hid Jews? Moreover, what are we to make of the Lenten message of Pope Pius XI that was smuggled into German churches, the one where he condemned Nazism. Or what are we to make of his statement that no Christian can participate in Antisemitism?
Things aren’t always pat. The Holocaust cannot be laid at the doorstep of either Evolution or Christianity. However, all Christians - and I say this as a Christian - need to recognize the price of expediency, and of putting prejudice above the love of God.
Melusine: What’s with the Chicago school of economics?
That’s the name given to the followers of economist Milton Friedman, who taught at the U of C, and who backed a hardcore libertarian ideology (libertarian regarding the wealthy and powerful, anyway: the governments most friendly to “the Chicago boys” were primarily vicious dictatorships, such as Chile under Pinochet). (Pinochet’s Chile is not considered an economic success story.)
For more on these “free market” concepts and their applications, the current go-to seems to be Naomi Klein’s 2007 book, The Shock Doctrine.
I’m an Astronomer. (It just happens to be pointed at my neighbor’s window most nights!
You ARE watching ‘heavenly bodies’ though, right?
J/P=?
Folks, many years ago—when I was very, very hungry—I worked in religious broadcasting. Whether you believe me or not, I know for a fact—from their own mouths—that these people want nothing less than a Christian dictatorship in this country (well, the whole world, really). They pray for it, and they work toward it as best they can. That is the goal and ANYTHING is justifiable if it helps bring that goal closer. Theirs is a higher calling (in their minds) that transcends honesty, integrity, and decency. The Inquisition was not an aberration and it wasn’t really all that long ago.
You an laugh at them all you want…but what you should be is afraid.
It’s unfair to lay the blame of human faults on religion or the lack thereof. It’s how humans use or abuse these tools that’s important.
Well put. I am quite frustrated when fellow atheists blame all of religion for all the evils in mankind’s history. Religion is no more evil than science or atheism.
It can get worse:
http://www.onenewsnow.com/Politics/Default.aspx?id=72001
Theo
Changcho said:
“It doesn’t matter if Hitler was a Christian or not… some people say he was an atheist, he was not.”
I agree. My point is, Hitler could have believed anything or nothing, and he still would have been a monster. That is one thing that both sides, Christian and Atheist sometimes miss. Religion is like anything. It can be used for great good, (think of many aid agencies helping in Third World countries, feeding programs - and no, I’m not getting into a debate on THAT, there’s no point), or religion can be used for great evil, (The Crusades, The Inquisition, Jonestown, every Tom Cruise movie ever made). I don’t think it is religion itself that causes the problem, it is the way religious people use their religion to justify their actions. I don’t really care what people believe or don’t believe, so long as they don’t hurt anyone else with their beliefs by using them to justify their actions.
As far as the confusion over whether Hitler was a Christian or an Atheist, does it really matter? Hitler was an Atheist! Score one for the Christians! Hitler was a Christian! Score one for the Atheists! I really don’t care if he worshiped a pile of rotting trash - he was a NUT-JOB that was responsible for the slaughter of torture of millions of innocent lives. His religious beliefs, or lack of such didn’t pull the trigger, he did. There is only one man responsible for the actions of Adolf Hitler, and that man is Adolf Hitler, not Jesus Christ, not Charles Darwin.
looks like this story has made the NY Times.
I can’t believe I’m defending Christians…
Daffy, don’t lump all Christians in with the whackos like Pat Robertson, James Dobson, John Hagee, Mike Huckabee and others of that ilk. Not all Christians are raving lunatics. I agree that there is an element of extreme conservativism within American Christianity that has that aim, and yes they are very powerful. There are many other voices within Evangelical Christianity that are appalled by the actions of these kind of people. I have a great deal of respect for individuals like Tony Campolo, (yes, I know he recently made a statement, that IMO, was completely out of character for him, at least from what I have heard from him in the past), that stand opposed to these people, and have told them so.
A book that I am in the process of researching will deal with this element.
Daffy, those people are known as Dominionists. It is an offshoot of the Evangelical movement that has gained considerable power under the Bush Administration. Google names such as Rod Parsley, John Hagee to see what they are saying in their churches, and what their flocks are buying, lock, stock and barrel. And yes, it is scary, but trust me, not all Christians are like this.
Another point I want to make is this:
Just as religion can be used for good or evil, let us not forget, science can also be used to accomplish great good or evil. Nuclear power can be used to heat and light our homes and power our cities. It can also be used to obliterate those same cities. Genetically modified bacteria can be used to assist in the clean-up of toxic waste. Genetically modified can be used to lay human beings to waste. Is science bad? Of course not!
Theo, brilliant find! That’s Paul Abramson! The Keeper of the Kent Hovind CSE Blog, where Kent gives weekly updates consisting of “Knee Mail!?!” from his new home at the Elgin Air Force Base (A Federal Penitentiary) where he’s serving ten years for, ahem, “Not rendering unto Caesar…” It doesn’t get any sweeter than this! I always say, “If ya give a person enough rope, eventually they’s gonna hang themselves!”
I don’t think Godwin’s Law really counts here, since the whole blog entry is about an outside reference to Hitler and Nazis. I did wonder, however, why there were suddenly a bunch of ads for Hitler in the Google Ad thing all of a sudden.
That being said, I think the real problem with Christians, Nazis, and really anything else wrong in the world is people not being critical enough in their views and beliefs. It’s not that Nazis were athiest, it’s that the people of Germany bought their speeches and rallies, and voted their rights away without a second thought. They had unwavering faith that their government was doing good for them, and that’s the problem.
Besides, given that anti-semitism has been around in Europe since the dark ages, and that anti-semitism has come from the Christian church, shouldn’t we say that Nazi Germany was really influenced by CHRISTIAN values?
John Paradox: Re: Heavenly Bodies
I’m sorry I didn’t get that, I was just aligning my scope…
Instead of Godwin we have Godloose.
People who don’t trust the modern scientific method and modern widely accepted theories are ultra skeptic about ultra skepticism.
Most of neo nazi are hardcore christian.
I am surprised the movie dint mention the soviet regime. Lenin was a strong Darwin supporter. He caused the death of 4 millions, by purposely instauring hunger so that only the strongest would survive. Stalline pushed the numbers even further ahead.
But of course, this is stricly related to the thirst of power.Darwinism was merely a tool for unleashing an unavoidable tyranny.
Looking at the bio of Ben Stein in Wikipedia is pretty revealing.
This man was once a lawyer and speech writer for Richard Nixon.
He is also married to his ex-wife.
Sounds pretty sane to me.
I also note, with amusement, the full title of this movie is: “Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed.”
Well, DUH! There is the reason the smart people were kicked out of the screening!
Religion Cat Says: IM IN UR MINDS, POIZINING YER WERLD
http://www.bernieandjay.us/images/symie%20pope.jpg
Quiet Desperation nails it for the win with that pic! That cat looks seriously demon possessed, and the glowing eyes don’t help!
Writer of Expelled repents! Read about it here: http://www.kevinmillerxi.com.
Well it’s been a blast furnace of fun, but I think I’m going to bed. I think I’m going to watch the Fawlty Towers episode, “The Germans” before retiring… I just feel the need… like something has inspired me to do it.
Wow, over 100 posts on evolution and religion, and no sign of Mike J.
Hey, I’m just some guy…But it seems like alot of bickering stems from people not knowing the diffrence between “some” and “all”. Not all christians or atheists are bastards…However MOST people are selfish arrogant dicks.This filters evenly between, race, sex, religion,sexuality whatever…If you’re stupid you may subscribe to a certain stupidity your class allows. Think of it this way, if ants are stupid, they will be stupid in the way an ant will. So no. Religion/atheism does not = stupidity. Also whatever you subscribe to does not make you intelligent.
Another thing, couldn’t alot of christians dodge a WHOLE lot of arguement of evolution by simply saying “Yes, God’s will was evolution, or evolution is how god makes stuff”. It’s just that easy.
Finally, problems don’t stem from being religious, or atheist, or black or white, it’s just most parents (especcially these days ) Don’t teach proper values, and a whole lot of people are crazy stupid.
Just wanted to throw that in the fray, please don’t mind little ol’ me.
Just visited Kevin Miller’s Blog. It was a nice apology, while some may not agree with the film, at least commend him for the apology. Besides, he’s a Canadian, and just engaged in a well known Canadian ritual of saying sorry! We Canadians tend to do that alot! We are also practically neighbours! We live about 50 miles from each other.
Kevin, I can see your house from here!
Michael,
I am not lumping all Christians in with the lunatics you mentioned. However, those lunatics do have the ear of our president and much of the government.
And they do have the support of, literally, millions of followers. Ignoring them would be foolish.
Daffy:
Exactly! It does appear that there will be a reprieve for at least four years, (unless either Hillary or Obama go in the tank somehow, but I can’t see that happening, and I cannot imagine a scenario where McCain would ever be elected) but all that will do is cause them to fall back and regroup and come out stronger next time. They are a powerful force indeed.
“…it says that evolution leads to the cold and ruthless slaughter of millions of people. … Right from the start, this is an total and abhorrent lie.”
I don’t think you really even need to address this point; it’s ludicrous. This is part of the ID strategy, to gain legitimacy through debate. Every paragraph you write defending notions that need no defense and criticizing their unsupportable crap allows them the cachet of legitimacy by association. Better to attack the funding source, and discredit the project by showing its lack of credibility.
This is nothing short of disgraceful. Truly worthy of the Sylvia Browne treatment - anyone want to start a StopBenStein web presence? He’s spawning followers who have earned the right to tattoo the word ‘Sad’ on their forehead!
I always have to chuckle at the wholesale hypocrisy and residual stupidity that surrounds moronic human behaviour like this. They know their position is complete twaddle dressed as nonsense, so they lie, cheat, and squirm their way into a warm cuddly corner of comfortable numbness and repeat thier baseless propoganda ad-nauseum until they are almost even convinced themselves!
Funny though, such proponents of the so-called ‘truth’ seem awfully scared of the actual truth.
There is http://www.stopbenstein.com/ albeit it seems to contain mistakes (e.g., a release date of 12-Feb), and, here’s the kicker, babbles on about “Self-organization Structuralism”.
Eh?
That’s what Stuart Pivar, the balloon animals nutjob who tried to sue PZ, calls his silly idea.
And in that site, there’s a claim Stephen J. Gould “championed” Pivar’s nonsense.
Eh?
The mystery is solved with `whois’:
It seems Mr Pivar has(? had?) a plan to use the outrage at Expelled to either promote his own absurd ideas, or just to make some money by “squatting” a domain-name someone might want.
It doesn’t matter if Hitler believed in god or not. The cult of personality that surrounded him was a religion in itself and if you go to any neo-nazi website you’ll see that it still lives today.
Atheism in and of itself can’t cause anything because it’s isn’t anything, it’s the lack of something. The Theory of Evolution is a peaceful scientific theory. Even the biggest Richard Dawkins book tour is dwarfed by the average Christian ministry in the United States. Expelled is a paranoid fantasy. Christians have absolutely nothing to feel persecuted about.
Some creationists and fundies have master’s degrees and PhD’s but as Sam Harris says they may only have them so that they can promote psuedoscience and flying spaghetti monster nonsense. When I hear someone say “you have to believe me because I have x-degrees in this or that”, the red flag goes up (this principle goes for anyone, but especially creationists.) Now we have to hear this evil Nazi nonsense from the biggest insecure creationist token a-hole of all: Ben Stein.
I have a lot of relatives who want to see this movie because they think it’s a balanced portrayal of the plight of perceived pariah creationists in universities. But believing that Christianity is persecuted is the same as saying that the media has a liberal bias: you’re being fed your pablum by the very medium that has the unmitigated control to give you that same message every day (in other words, why is the ubiquitous “liberal media” telling you there’s a liberal bias through the mouths of men like Rush Limbaugh and Bill O’Reilly?)
Demagogues like Ben Stein and John Hag