I hate to think that US stupidity about shutting down science is spreading to the UK — or maybe it’s just endemic with governments — but the Times Online is reporting that Jordrell Bank, the venerable radio astronomy observatory, may get closed down. Why? Well, money, of course, but it’s pocket change, a couple of million pounds a year.
I wonder if governments like to shut down lots of small projects because it gives the appearance that they’re actually doing something. But let me ask you: you have a full hard drive, and on it is a 1 Gb movie you’ve already watched, and 1000 1Mb movies. Which is better and more time-effective to delete?
I will 100% absolutely guarantee that in the UK, there are better programs to shut down that cost a lot more money than Jordrell Bank does.
DaveP’s Astronomy blog has a lot more on this ridiculous situation.
March 6th, 2008 at 9:49 am
This is terribly stupid. I can’t believe they will actually do this.
March 6th, 2008 at 9:53 am
The simple reality is that governments always prefer cutting costs in the ways that are least obviously painful. It’s not the cost itself of the place that’s at issue, it’s that cutting that cost won’t piss many people off. There won’t be protests, or lobbying efforts by powerful supporters of astronomy. So it’s easy for them to cut it.
March 6th, 2008 at 10:04 am
It’s high-school economics: which do you cut first, sports or the arts?
March 6th, 2008 at 10:09 am
Swindon Town Football Club strikes again.
March 6th, 2008 at 10:11 am
I thought the following post helps articulate the dangers facing science in the future; and how certain elements are actively trying to destroy science.
http://www.newcomensengine.com/2008/03/will-science-die-at-harvard-new-wonders.html
March 6th, 2008 at 10:27 am
[…] Pacific Views wrote an interesting post today onHere’s a quick excerpt I hate to think that US stupidity about shutting down science is spreading to the UK — or maybe it’s just endemic with governments — but the Times Online is reporting that Jordrell Bank, the venerable radio astronomy observatory, may get closed down. Why? Well, money, of course, but it’s pocket change, a couple of million pounds a year. I wonder if governments like to shut down lots of small projects because it gives the appearance that they’re actually doing something. But let me ask you: you […]
March 6th, 2008 at 10:32 am
Meanwhile, in the US, we have a brand new fighter jet that cost $60 billion to develop. It’s not being used. Why not? Because we don’t have any enemies who fly fighter jets anymore.
But hey, lets build another stadium!
Be sure all those corn farmers get their subsidy, but if solar needs a subsidy, it must not be viable yet.
I’m feeling particularly cynical and pessimistic, since I just graded a chemistry test my high schoolers took. The kids are even less able to think than they were 10 years ago.
March 6th, 2008 at 10:55 am
Steve has it pegged. When looking to trim budgets, politicians will always go after those programs they think will generate the least hue and cry. Therefore, the solution is simple: generate the prerequisite hue and cry.
Let’s see . . . a world-renowned radio observatory in Great Britain. That should be good for a bit of nationalism, don’t you think? Maybe tie it to the phrase “There doesn’t always have to be an England” and paint it as another example of the decline of Great Britain. Get the average British man in the street upset about the loss of national prestige. Then sit back and watch the politicians scramble.
March 6th, 2008 at 11:07 am
I have been following (and petitioning against) my Government’s slashing of the science budget. As an Open Univesity BSc student I am at risk of having my funding cut. I am also the Mother of two children, both with a real passion for Science (that this government keeps telling us it wishes to foster) What message does this send to my kids. Is there a future for them in science in this country?
March 6th, 2008 at 11:28 am
Well, if the 1Gb movie is porn, I’m keeping it and ditching the 1Mb observatory.
March 6th, 2008 at 12:09 pm
Especially since 1000 megabytes are 24 short of being a full gigabyte.
March 6th, 2008 at 1:13 pm
Would that the British government had as easy a time clearing off its budget as we do clearing off our hard drives. We can burn DVDs and keep the porn and the observatory footage. There’s got to be a better way for the UK to save money than by closing down a world scientific heritage site.
Come to think of it……… Wouldn’t it be great to have a World Scientific Heritage program?
Well, I can dream, can’t I?
March 6th, 2008 at 2:46 pm
How much does the NHS spend covering Homeopathy?
March 6th, 2008 at 2:57 pm
This is truly a sad state of affairs.
March 6th, 2008 at 4:12 pm
Astronomy in the UK has been in serious trouble ever since the old PPARC (”Particle Physics and Astronomy Research Council”), which funded astronomy and particle physics, became STFC (”Science and Technology Facilities Council”… funny, the word “research” isn’t in the title). They tried to pull out Gemini until the entire UK astronomical community pointed out that they would then be without access to any large telescope in the northern hemisphere. A lot of my astronomical friends in the UK are searching for jobs elsewhere because the funding future looks very bleak.
March 6th, 2008 at 4:35 pm
First NASA, then Fermilab, and now this? I’m beginning to think that we scientists and our sympathizers should go off and start our own civilization. I’m thinking we should call it “The Foundation”. It has a nice ring to it, no?
March 6th, 2008 at 4:43 pm
If the stupidity is spreading, I’m afraid it’s travelled around the world.
In New Zealand the government commissioned a report that recommended the National Observatory be transferred from Wellington’s Carter Observatory to Christchurch’s Mt John.
The government followed the first bit of advice and withdrew funding, with the loss of pretty much all jobs: but they’ve just decided not to select another National Observatory.
Way to promote science!
March 6th, 2008 at 5:36 pm
Don’t be surprised if the UK follows the US lead in everything … Iraq and Afghanistan are notable examples of British compliability to US wants.
The same is true at the level of the “woo woo” merchants.
Religious fundamentalism in the UK aped the US explosion (on a more conservative, British scale, of course) - an evil tide that, thankfully, seems at last to be in recession.
Public appreciation of science has followed this lapse into the medievil mindset. If an easy, nonsense explanation can be applied to any given event, it will be. The scientific explanation is just “too hard” for the average Joe to grasp, they imagine.
Politicians appeal to the lowest common denominator in democratic nations. So we’re stuck - you have to slow down and run with the slowest if you want democracy. Observatories are an example of the type of institution the voters don’t understand, so they’re gone!
If a nuclear bomb exploded above the Irish Sea the British tabloids would lead with a Britney story. Why? Because that is the level the public are comfortable with. Forget the toxic cloud of radioactivty about to fall. That is the extent to which scientific appreciation has stooped among the UK population.
March 6th, 2008 at 5:58 pm
That’s depressing. The Jodrell Bank visitor’s centre was my first exposure to astronomy, any many years ago.
March 6th, 2008 at 6:15 pm
[…] Bank observatory may shut down according to a UK funding proposal (via Bad Astronomy). The observatory is comprised of several radio telescopes including Lovell, the third largest […]
March 6th, 2008 at 11:54 pm
There’s a lot more information about the current astronomy funding situation in the UK available via sites such as http://www.saveastronomy.org.uk/
March 7th, 2008 at 12:47 am
The BA wrote :
“I will 100% absolutely guarantee that in the UK, there are better programs to shut down that cost a lot more money than Jordrell Bank does.”
Absolutely. Cut the money wasted by having troops in Iraq &Afghanistan, sdecalre tehnonsensical War onTerror” over -byadmitting itwasa dumb idea tobeginwith and stop wastingzillions on ex-Pms like Tony Blair, theRoyal family and other parasites.
America could save trillions of dolars and put them to so much better and ultimately worthwhile scientific and socio-cultural use (eg. national health & education) by :
- Getting the heck outta other nations!
Eg. Iraq, Afghnaistan, Cuba,Saudi Arabia, etc ..
- Leaving other nations the heck alone & not threatening to invade them! Eg. Iran, practically the whole of the South West Asian-Islamic world region, Latin, Southand Central America
- NOT funding, arming and supporting its nastiest allies & esp. Israel so they transparently do its dirty work for it - & stop funding the Jewish fundamentalist state inits warof occupation in Palestine. (That alone is where about half the US budget goes - to Israel!)
- Demilitarise and de-escalate the aggro rhetoric, let other nations be other nations, Israel has the right to defend itself sure - Yet so too does Palestine, so too does Iran, Syria, Taiwan, Russia and China and … well ..everywhere. The best thing is to NOT NEED defending by getting along with other nations peacefully. Itsalso chepaer inmoney & lives
&
- Change your electoral system and government system to a cheaper, faster and better one. Like Australia’s or Ireland’s or Sweden’s -these are the world’s real model democracies. Rather than your overly long, horrendously costly, needlessly complex system maybe try electing a few people from various backgrounds along jury selectionmethods. Maybe justgo toa proportional, preferential votingsyetm. Abolish or revamp that useless electoral colledge and let the people vote directly ..
Just some suggestions!
Just think how much could be saved by scrapping the occupations of Iraq and Palestine alone - & not just in money.
————————————-
‘Since it is impossible to coerce thought, the way to social harmony is to discuss conflict and pursue truth; the more people speak their minds freely, the more they are likely to be loyal citizens.’
– Jewish Dutch 17th C philosopher, B. Spinoza.
March 7th, 2008 at 12:52 am
Gyyaaahh! *&*(*^&*@!! typos.
Corrected paragraph :
“Absolutely. Cut the money wasted by having troops in Iraq & Afghanistan, declare the nonsensical “War of Terror” over - by admitting it
was a dumb idea to begin with and stop wasting zillions on funding ex-Pms like Tony Blair, the Royal in-bred family and other parasites.”
March 7th, 2008 at 12:52 am
Help out by signing the petition to save Jodrell Bank on the UK government’s petitions site:
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/jodrellfunding/
(there’s actually 3 but this had the most most votes on last check - democracy in action… the power diluted over 3 identical arguments
)
March 7th, 2008 at 12:53 am
(if you’re reading this and are British, I should have mentioned…)
March 7th, 2008 at 1:05 am
Sometime soon the USA - & the wider Western world - should ask itself if its worth destroying our entire civilisation to temporarily enable the imposition of a brutal military-theocratic state of Jewish fundamentalists in a region where they are simply never going to be welcome.
My suggestion - shift Israel to New York & leave the Muslim world alone in peace.
That’s the sure-fire way to win the current needless war for everyone - except those child-murdering Israeli settlers - but their loss is the planets gain.
March 7th, 2008 at 1:16 am
Wrote # Todd on 06 Mar 2008 at 10:04 am
“It’s high-school economics: which do you cut first, sports or the arts?”
Sport!
But first I’d cut the huge overspending on the Military-Industrial complex.
A fraction of the money saved there can go on funding better diplomacy so we’re not involved in needless wars anymore. Also why the hell should Israel be getting half of America’s budget?
Lets get our priorities right!
Give that money to science instead - imagine what NASA could do with a quarter of the money wasted on giving Israeli’s the capability to make life ever more worse for the people of Palestine?
Take money out of the military, out of the hands of the richest elite CEO’s & aristocrats who all got that way by hurting everyone else …
… & give it to the people who make everyones life better -doctors, scientists, nurses, teachers,small businessfolk etc .. Fund health, education, science and take that money from the military, political and religious monsters who’ve wasted too much, for too little, for too long, to the detriment of all of us.
March 7th, 2008 at 1:20 am
As for sport, I reckon it probably gets about enough funding - maybe even too much. Although it would be good to see Americans investing in learning how to play cricket!
—————————————–
- Invade other planets (& asteroids and comets), NOT other nations!
March 7th, 2008 at 1:29 am
“Imagine what NASA could do with a quarter of the money wasted on giving Israeli’s the capability to make life ever more worse for the people of Palestine esp. Gaza?”
… Or just murdering them.
Despite what your ‘Apocalyptic Christians for Israel’ & ‘Israel-is-always-Right’ neocons lobbies falsely say any intelligent and objective examination of the situation will show that the Palestineans are “far more sinned against than sinning” as Shakespeare may put things.
Sure, they are not perfect. But they too do have the right to self defence, to live freely and in peace and their civil liberties,human rights and lives have suffered far more, for far longer than their Jewish rival claimants to that troublesome stretch of Levantine coast.
Its about time the USA really woke up to that basic truth and reacted accordingly. We won’t get peace until the Palestineans plight is justly rather than unjustly addressed by the Western world. This is what the whole Islamic world -Western world conlfict stems from …
March 7th, 2008 at 1:32 am
Anyhow, I’ll sign the Save Jodrell Bank petition too.
I love them & what they’ve done too.
Awful, tragic waste to cut it.
March 7th, 2008 at 1:55 am
[the scientists at JB have already moved to the alan turing building in manchester]
March 7th, 2008 at 2:45 am
Said # Tom on 07 Mar 2008 at 12:52 am
“Help out by signing the petition to save Jodrell Bank on the UK government’s petitions site:
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/jodrellfunding/
(there’s actually 3 but this had the most most votes on last check - democracy in action… the power diluted over 3 identical arguments )”
… Er Tom - I ain’t a British resident or citizen so I can’t sign that one.
Please, could you -or anyone - post the links to the others here esp. if one of tehm is open to the whole global range rather than just one nation .. (Or three but I’ve gone into enough detail with Palestine so I’ll spare folks the case for Scotland separating!)
————————————–
F - R - E - E -E - E - E - E- D - O - M !!!!!
- William Wallace (As quoted by Mel Gibson!)
March 7th, 2008 at 2:53 am
From the petition site linked above :
“You must be a British citizen or resident to sign the petition.
Your address (will not be published): …
UK postcode: …
Or, if you’re an expatriate, you’re in an overseas territory, a Crown dependency or in the Armed Forces without a postcode, please select from this list: — Select — Expatriate Armed Forces Anguilla Ascension Island Bermuda British Antarctic Territory British Indian Ocean Territory British Virgin Islands Cayman Islands Channel Islands Falkland Islands Gibraltar Isle of Man Montserrat Pitcairn Island St Helena S. Georgia and the S. Sandwich Islands Tristan da Cunha Turks and Caicos Islands ..”
March 7th, 2008 at 3:06 am
Quoteth # Tomon 07 Mar 2008 at 12:53 am
“(if you’re reading this and are British, I should have mentioned…)’
Yes indeed .. Mentioned what?
That only UK residents can sign? Or is there something else?
March 7th, 2008 at 6:37 pm
Scary stuff. The comments over at The Register (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03/06/stfc_radio_astronomy/comments/) are worth a read. There is the suggestion that the STFC is calling the government’s bluff - knowing that Jodrell Bank is high profile, threatening it’s closure draws public attention to their plight in a way in which closing a few minor projects down wouldn’t. I certainly hope so anyway
July 5th, 2008 at 6:08 am
Eric
The most comprehensive info I have found on this subject on the net. Will be back soon to follow up.