Jul 25 2007
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Texas: Doomed
Via the DefCon blog comes that news that Texas governor Rick Perry has appointed a creationist to head the Texas State Board of Education.
I’ll give you a moment to clean off your screen. Yes, you read that right.
At first I thought, "No, not even a politician in Texas could possibly do something that dumb, that contrary to reality, that horrifying to their kids. DefCon Blog must have gotten it wrong!"
And then I did a few searches. DefCon Blog got it right. According to the Dallas Morning News:
Texas Freedom Network president Kathy Miller … noted that in 2003, Dr. McLeroy was one of four board members who voted against proposed high school biology textbooks because he felt their coverage of evolution was “too dogmatic” and did not include possible flaws in Charles Darwin’s theory of how life on Earth evolved from lower forms.
That is straight out of the creationist tactics notebook. In case you’re not sure, the article goes on to quote McLeroy:
“It is wrong to teach opinion as fact,” he said.
Pssst! Someone needs to tell him it’s also unconstitutional to teach religion as science.
Here is an Op-Ed talking about McLeroy’s appointment as Board chair:
In 2001, McLeroy and a majority of the board rejected the only Advanced Placement textbook for high school environmental science because its views on global warming and other events didn’t comport with the beliefs of the board majority. The book wasn’t factual and was anti-American and anti-Christian, the majority claimed. Meanwhile, dozens of colleges and universities were using the textbook, including Baylor University, the nation’s largest Baptist college.
In 2003, McLeroy voted against approving biology textbooks that included a full-scale scientific account of evolutionary theory.
Here is a letter McLeroy sent out to his fellow State Board of Education members:
My Personal Confession
Given all the time in the world, I don’t think I could make a spider out of a rock. However, most of the books we are considering adopting, claim that Nothing made a spider out of a rock.
I don’t think I share a common ancestor with a tree. However, most of the books we are considering adopting, claim as a fact that we all share a common ancestor with a tree.
Brilliant! This guy doesn’t understand the most basic principles of biology, and he’s going to chair the State Board of Education. And hey, if he doesn’t understand something, why should it be taught at all?
Here is Don McLeroy’s own website, from the Favorite Quotations section:
The belief seems to be spreading that intellectuals are no wiser as mentors, or worthier as exemplars, than the witch doctors or priests of old. I share that scepticism.
Think that one through for a moment, folks. The new head of the Texas State Board of Education is an anti-intellectual. Note: he didn’t say this himself, he is quoting someone else; but it’s clearly a quotation he agrees with.
You can rail all you want and complain that I write too much about anti-science in the form of religious fundamentalism, but you would be wrong. I can’t write about this enough. It’s a disease, a virus, and now the brains of millions of schoolchildren in Texas are at risk. Worse, Texas (along with California) has an unusually large influence on what textbooks get used in the rest of the country, because they are such a large market for the publishers. If this antiscience, anti-intellectual, anti-reality man gets to help choose what textbooks go in Texas, then you parents out there who are reading this in New Hampshire, in Wyoming, in Oregon, in Virginia — your own kids are at risk here too.
Fighting this stuff is important.
Fight.
And I leave you with this thought, unless we do something about it…
Science in Texas:
Oh, and before I am accused yet again of being anti-religious: read this first.
It’s hard to be surprised about this. Texas is the stupidest place on earth.
Oh the stupid, it burns, it burns.
I can’t say I am surprised in the least. Perhaps us people in California can convince the good folk at CalTech to make giant death ray and rid us of the burden that is Texas, once and for all.
I couldn’t agree with your emphasis on the importance of fighting these kinds of developments. All to often people skirt these issues and consider them unimportant but they effect the education of millions of people and generations to come. I think one could quite accurately state that decisions like these will shape the future of mankind.
>>> Texas is the stupidest place on earth.
So we combat anti-science bigotry with more bigotry. Wonderful. You’ll really appeal to the masses with that approach. I know, let’s get Penn & Teller to call the people of Texas a bunck of f******* douchebags. That’ll win their hearts and minds! Wheeeee!
I don’t mean to be a grouch (as much as I *do* enjoy it), but this is a peeve of mine.
Re: picture
If the mouse represents science, then can’t the mouse transform into a giant mecha robo-mouse?
>>> It’s a disease, a virus,
“Meme” is the word you are looking for.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme
I live in Houston. Sorry- but Texans are just as smart and just as dumb as people in any other state.
(Some) Texans are however infected with some pretty bad ideas that have ramifications for the rest of the country.
BA, are posts being held in some kind of moderation. For, unlike the problem I reported yesterday on your new style blog. Where on posting I get the regex error and on reposting it I get the wordpress, ‘you have posted this once’ error message. Now I still get both the regex error and the wordpress dual post error, but, when I go back to the blog I posted to and do a hard or soft refresh, unlike yesterday, my post is not there. While reporting the problem encountered this is more of a test to see if this post will make it through this time, unlike my previous post.
Phil - You might not be anti-religion I am. (I think you are and are being politically correct). Doesn’t matter if I’m right about you or not.
What matters is that religion is a scourge on humanity. They believe in nonsense and I would put the number of people who claim to be religious just to “fit in” at 80+%.
I believe that 1 + 1 = 2. I don’t have to think about it. I don’t have to convince myself. I don’t operate outside of that simple truth.
But people who “believe” in their gods don’t live like people who have faith. They live like people who hope it’s true and they’ll find salvation. Actually a lot of them live like total dirtbags and think they can say a few magic words to make into the kingdom of heaven (which doesn’t exist, btw).
The “god” in the old testement has the maturity of an 11 y/o. Is that supposed to be the same god that created the entire universe? How much sense does it make that some entity can create this beautiful, wonderous, unimaginably huge existence and then turn around and ask for kids to be burned on an alter to “please” him or turn people into pillars of salt because they pissed him off. What a freakin jerk!
Want to know what a piece of crap god is? Here’s a good place to start:
http://www.evilbible.com/
BA, that one made it, the only way I can make a post is to submit once and get the Regex ID: 18261 error message. Click back and do a refresh, where I see my post is still in the entry box waiting posting. I then click submit again and get the Wordpress duplicate post error. Click Back and do a hard refresh and the post then appears. If I change that procedure in any way, the post refuses to appear.
While condemning creationism isn’t necessarily anti-religious, it is attacking a religious doctrine that is most definitely anti-intellectual. Without the doctrine of Biblical inerrancy–that the Bible is the literal and inerrant word of God–then we would have very few creationists to worry about.
It is possible to believe in inerrancy and not be a young-Earth creationist, but you have to abandon any simple, literal reading of Genesis to the point that young-Earthers will pour as much scorn on you as they do evolutionists.
And creationists aren’t even consistent in their own beliefs about the inerrancy of the Bible. Where are all the calls for the reintroduction of slavery? Why are supporters of the death penalty (for Biblical reasons) so squeamish about stonings and beatings, which are just as Biblical? Why aren’t they calling for all the gays and lesbians to rounded up and put to death? Why do we always hear that homosexuality is an abomination but never that lying is condemned in just as harsh terms? Why do they rant on and on about the Ten Commandments (most of which are unconstitutional, by the way) and yet we never hear them quote from the Beatitudes (you know, blessed are the meek, the peacemakers, etc.)? One could go on all day.
The doctrine of biblical inerrancy is a sham, practiced properly by almost no one. “We believe the Bible” is just a slogan used as an excuse not to use one’s brain when faced with tough questions about morality, faith, and the world around us.
Amazing.
But, unfortunately, unsurprising. The creationists have infiltrated the Republican party so completely that their beliefs are becoming mainstream and acceptable, even to the point where someone who is so hostile to intellectual pursuit is put in such a position of responsibility.
Yes, fight this crap. At every level, at every opportunity.
You’re using the same rhetoric they use to get your point across. It’s all about “the children”, or in your case the children’s brain
I highly doubt that fighting rhetoric with rhetoric is effective by any measure……
Isn’t Texas the state where a state government official, stumping against the issue of Spanish as an official state language said something like,
“If English was good enough for Jesus Christ is should be good enough for Texas.”
Yeah, I thought so.
John Philips: Me too but I just hit submit a second time for the double submit error, then the post goes through.
I wonder how the Reconstructionists(read: fundi christians) would feel if our muslim population were as adamant about making Islam the national religion as are the fundi christians.? Isn’t it strange that these two religions, derived from Judiasm, are so aggressive in promoting their interpretaion of the old testament, while most Jews are in complete agreement with our emperical interpretation of reality? I guess humanity has a long way to go before reason triumphs over magic,,,but the Jews give me hope,,,
Gary 7
It always amazes me that the US cannot shout these yahoos down. Is there another western country that would even consider someone with those sorts of views for a senior education post?
While i agree that people should be free to think, or not, as they see fit, I certainly believe that some thoughts do disqualify you from some activities. Believing in the literal truth of some ancient mythology should disqualify you from leading educational institutions, for example, and I can’t see how such a disqualification would not be beyond reproach. Believing that invisible spirits talk to you should probably be a reason to be disqualified from being in charge of weapons, particularly weapons of mass destruction, and so forth.
I must say I feel for all the Americans having to fight this poison, here in the uk we have very few fundamentalists so are spared this insanity, mostly, for the moment. I do happen to know that a creationist school has opened up in Gateshead near Newcastle Upon Tyne, with the approval of our own christian whack job ex pm Tony Blair. Unfortunately this Gordon Brown character that has succeeded in wheedling his way into power is similarly deranged. I look to the future of Britain , as an atheist, with dread. As to the education of our youth I give you this true quote Phil and all that it implies: last year I explained to a young man of 23 yrs at my workplace what stars where. Yes, really, I had to do this. His response was this… ”So those stars in the sky, you mean they’re not really small, they’re just really far away.”
wow.
I don’t think…
I can agree with that.
I’ve lived in Texas nearly my entire life, and while I won’t say that it’s the stupidest place on Earth, because I don’t know that to be true, I will say that there are an incredible number of ignorant, poorly educated, religiously dogmatic, intellectually non-curious and just plain *dumb* people in Texas.
I’ve been in public science education (astronomy) at a major Observatory for about 10 years now, and I’ve seen little if any improvement in those 10 years. Rather, it seems as if things are getting worse.
Our governor (”governor good hair)” is not known for his intellectual prowess, nor was our former governor, now our president. It appears as if the governor religious nut doesn’t fall far from the governor religious nut tree here in the lone star state.
I don’t know how things are in, say, Vermont when it comes to backward people, but working here where I do, my colleagues and I are always quite surprised when we do meet a visitor to the Observatory who is simultaneously intellectually curious, well read, not a religious nutbag, interested in science education, and a Texan.
If I knew for a fact that all states had the same ratio of zealots as Texas (or at least the south) does, I would be much more dismayed and most likely start planning my exodus to Canada or Scandanavia sooner than later.
“Given all the time in the world, I don’t think I could make a spider out of a rock. However, most of the books we are considering adopting, claim that Nothing made a spider out of a rock.”
It’s pretty much a given that when people criticize Evolution, they show just how ignorant of the basics they are.
Ugh! I’m going to have to add this to the top of my list of reasons not to ever move to Texas! Actually, this would be a sufficient reason all by itself So much for my list!
I think I’m going to be sick…
“I don’t think I share a common ancestor with a tree.”
Well mate, you sound like a plank to me…
“It always amazes me that the US cannot shout these yahoos down.”
Too many fundies in positions of power, it seems. I share Tony J’s concern for UK schools. While for the most part, despite teaching religion, our schools generally don’t let it interfere with teaching good science, our esteemed leaders fondness for faith schools makes monitoring fundamentalism problematic. Vardy’s Gateshead school being a case in point. Eternal vigilance and all that.
Blair and Brown are both bozo’s. Cameron on the other side is also a fan of faith schools. Maybe we’re screwed.
Sadly, part of the problem I feel is that a lot of people would agree with this part. of what he said.
>Given all the time in the world, I don’t think I could make a spider out of a rock. >However, most of the books we are considering adopting, claim that Nothing >made a spider out of a rock.
>
>I don’t think I share a common ancestor with a tree. However, most of the books >we are considering adopting, claim as a fact that we all share a common >ancestor with a tree.”
Not because they are being wilfully ignorant or trying to overthrow science but simply because they were taught about evolution very badly. I have had enough conversations with otherwise intelligent people about this and they all don’t really get evolution. Somewhere, somehow the message gets corrupted into the drivel above.
Also is it me or does this view seem to be at the moment confined to people of similar cohort. If so then the problem should go away if we can keep science teaching free from religion.
Of course having berks like him in charge of education isn’t going to solve the problem, but then again neither is belittling those that don’t yet get it. It is a fine line to walk, but step over it and you will most likely lose people to creationism.
So, what can we do?
I live in Texas and I heard about this about a week ago. I’m writing a letter to Rick Perry and distributing it wherever I can.
The other thing that bugs me about McLeroy is that he advocates “abstinence only” sex-ed, to the exclusion of actually informing young people about the dangers of unwanted pregnancies and STDs like AIDS or HPV.
If repeating “abstinence only” qualifies as sex education, then telling a toddler “Just hold it!” qualifies as potty training.
I nearly choked on my very tasty bran muffin. Then I came about and thought “Well, it IS texas.”
I don’t know, it’s sorta sad that I expected that coming from these folks. It’s a sad, sad thing. I pity the students of Texas.
Brian, I saw the abstinence-only nonsense on his site and even had it in an earlier draft of this post, but took it out because it wasn’t part of the main thrust about creationism and science. But it certainly shows that this guy is way our to the right of reality.
BA, you’re 100% correct that the big danger here is that textbooks used nation-wide are in danger. Texas and California are the two biggest purchasers, and most textbook publishers follow their curriculums, and then add in other stuff to make the books match as many states as possible. If you’re at all interested in this problem, I strongly suggest reading: “The Language Police: How Pressure Groups Restrict What Students Learn” by Diane Ravitch - it’ll blow your mind.
Due to the fact that textbook publishers want to sell their books in as many states as possible, our students are getting these huge textbooks with shallow coverage of many, many aspects of a subject, rather than books that are strongly focused. So what happens is that instead of learning an aspect of a subject indepth, then moving on the next year, kids learn many different skills to a more shallow degree, and then they have to review it every year. Time is wasted. In Japan, for example, there is a national curriculum that covering comprises about 2/3 of the school year - there is one set of textbooks and in first grade, certain topics are covered indepth, and then in second grade other topics, etc. They don’t have to review every year because all the kids covered the same stuff, and covered it well. The other 1/3 of the year means that the local school boards or teachers can add additional material that they think is important. But all the kids are covering the same basic information at the same time. But here in the US we’re trying to enforce national guidelines through testing, while allowing each state to have its own curriculum. And we’ve all seen how well THAT is working. And the textbooks publishers trying to make sales is just making it all worse.
Rant over. Sorry, I’m a beginning teacher, so this stuff is front and center for me.
If you would like to know the type of theocratic culture these knotheads have planned for us, check out Iran.
14th century thinking with a different name for their God; that’s about it.
I’m from Texas and I have seen a lot of those people. They don’t have any basic science knowledge and dismiss what they don’t know. The SAD thing is they will tell you that you don’t know anything about the bible and dismiss what they believe. They don’t deserve what science has brought to our daily life: petroleum, medicine, and the machine that prints their bible!
Arg! This makes me sad. I live in Texas so this is pretty bad news. Wish there was something I could do…
Im shocked. The idea of children being “taught” in environments like this is just too terrible.
I have lived all my life in Ohio, and I do remember that, although I had heard of evolution while in high school, it wasn’t until I got to a university (in a biology curriculum) that I finally got into a course on evolution. That course on evolution changed everything for me at the time. For a long time after that (years), although I understood the biology, I continued to believe in a creator, and tried to intellectually reconcile that with what I had been taught about science. In retrospect, understanding evolution, or science in general, does not automatically convert one to no longer believe in what you have been brainwashed to believe from a very early age. It’s compartmentalization within the brain, or as Steven Jay Gould once said, non-overlapping magisteria (NOMA). Compartmentalization is what many otherwise brilliant and gifted scientists still do today.
My point is that I am surprised and dismayed that I was “insulated” for so long in high school from a well-developed science that had been around for well over a hundred years. I wonder how true this is of many secondary level schools in America. If so, the problem is more widespread than we might yet imagine, and a serious one. Is anyone aware of any credible research that has been done on this? What do people on school boards around the country believe about science and science education? How many school boards are headed or dominated by YECs, and what influence do they actually have over science education? My guess is that the results would frighten many of us.
Remember the movie Idiocracy? … This is how it starts…
My post linking to yours.
Cat likes the picture.
Hey, Texas is a great place with great people. I have many friends there and people in texas don’t appear to be dumb to me. It would be like saying all Americans are dumb becuase the elected George Bush… it’s also a great place to live. Had to get that off my chest.
Thanks, BA, for this alert to us Texans. Dr. McElroy views do not represent the majority of either scientists or Christians in our state.
His ATM evolutionary arguments are sad…
http://home.att.net/~dmcleroy/Textbooks/Historical_Reality.htm
[…] sick as I type this. Anyone interested in the fight against Creationism should check out a post on Phil Plait’s Bad Astronomy blog. Texas: Doomed. Great write up by Phil and a sad state of affairs for science and school […]
Honestly, the older I get I’m beginning to think that Texas is really no different than anywhere else in the world. The ratio of intelligent people to morons is probably representative of other places. It’s just a bigger place so when something stupid happens in Texas there’s more of a chance for the region to catch a bad rap.
For the people asking “what can I do?”, raise awareness. Write letters to the editor of your newspaper, write your congressman, get involved with your kid’s PTA, start your own blog for that matter! The fate of Reason itself is at stake, and with every time superstition overpowers Reason, the world becomes a little bit dumber. Fight the good fight, dammit.
Love your blog, Phil.
I don’t feel so bad about growing up in Kansas anymore. Now, stab and twist until the stupid is dead.
Your picture depicts a “survival of the fittest” scenario..
Implied in the picture.. science is the mouse.. I.D. is the cat..
The mouse is barely intelligent, knowing only the baser nature of life.. food, and reproduction. Also very prone to “pavlov” type persuasion…. also multiplies rapidly, carries diseases, is quick in its judgements, and is a considered a PEST by exterminators. Spends most of its day pooping, or running around in and endless pointless wheel, and squeaking to itself in rambling profusion… i.e. much like the cirucular reasoning that evolutionists engage in ad nauseum.
The cat on the other hand displays emotions, demonstrates intelligence, short and long term memory, individuality, and even has a form of social struture/status among fellow felines. The cat takes care (kills) the PEST by planning a modus operandi and executing it with a precision that sometimes defies the ‘laws’ of physics….and then spends the rest of its day sitting in quiet contemplation and meditation.
The summation of your article should say “EVOLUTION in Texas : Doomed”… since we all know science is the study of observed phenomenon… and the TESTING in the LAB of OBSERVATIONS, not speculations….
Albiet true that when you get rid of a lot of the “specultions”… most of your socalled “science” goes down the tubes… that is to say.. your textbook of “factual science” would get a LOT smaller.
Mike J, you’ve got me confused….are you saying that science is a PEST and religion is the hunter? Do you go further to say that science is futile and circular in it’s thinking while religion is based on individuality and intelligence? I need to know if you’re really saying that or your whole post is reeking with sarcasm and I just didn’t detect it.
Because wow, if you feel that way….I’m at a loss for words. And I’ve read a lot of things on this board/site that have made me scratch my head but none have prompted me to write before.
I wouldn’t have thought that my first BA Blog post would be here, but I just couldn’t resist.
I went to a religiously affiliated school, and they were quite willing to teach evolution there. In fact, it was encouraged thinking - side by side with theology.
More than half my extended family lives in Texas so I feel I can’t bash it too much, but banning something because you don’t understand it is just plain wrong. I should provide an incentive to study it more and become better aware.
As Brian T. (almost wrote “Brain,” sorry about that!) says, we have to raise awareness, and just hope that there are enough people out there who will see that a disaster is looming so that a change can be made.
Ironically, MikeJ just demonstrated his complete lack of understand of what “survival of the fittest” means in terms of evolutionary biology.
Par for the course for IDists, naturally.
Welcome BlondeReb3,
The verdict is still out on how hard Dr. McElroy will push his views. He may have tempered some since 2003, since he did receive some backlash from eminent scientists, such as Weinberg at UT (where McElroy obtained is MD)…
http://www.austinchronicle.com/gyrobase/Issue/story?oid=oid:178247
“Perhaps the brightest star was UT physicist and Nobel Laureate physicist Steven Weinberg, who told board members that they should see their responsibility as analogous to that of judges who would not admit purported evidence of “witchcraft” to the consideration of a jury, any more than the board should ask students to determine the current scientific consensus in biology. Weinberg said the knowledge embodied in evolutionary theory reflects the “overwhelming consensus” of biological scientists.â€
I’d like to thank MikeJ for confirming everything I have written about him in previous posts.
And George, reading the link to McLeroy’s views on evolution you provided above, I don’t think he’ll ease off much. He published that sad tract in 2003. At least he doesn’t think the Sun revolves around the Earth… and that is the best thing I can say about him.
Back in Ann Arbor, I served as the fearless leader of an anti-Moral Majority group called Voice of Reason. I did battle with creationists on campus and debated one in a U of M tabloid.
I recall that back then, in the early/mid ’80s, Texas tried to bully textbook publishers into dropping the very mention of “evolution” from science texts. The size of the Texas market forced publishers to cower.
California’s Superintendent stepped up and let publishers know that if publishers dropped evolution, they could kiss California’s market goodbye. California is the nation’s largest textbook market, so California quashed Texas’ anti-science initiative.
I decided I could work in a state like like California.
I shudder to think about the quality of science education my neices and nephews will receive. Of course, my sister (their mother) will certainly approve…
Mike J – If you have kids, are you going to proudly urge them to fight and die in wars for Bush, Cheney, Jesus and Oil? (I presume your reasons, as the troops themselves, many from lower income families; have a variety of other reasons for being in Iraq and Afghanistan.) That’s what it’s really about: Creationism is a political agenda hiding behind dogmatic religious posturing. Its long term purpose is to nurture a generation devoid of critical thinking and devout enough to believe more than think. They can then be molded into unknowingly servile masses that endorse and obey whatever agenda the far-right promotes.
tacitus said: on 25 Jul 2007 at 12:15 pm
Ironically, MikeJ just demonstrated his complete lack of understand of what “survival of the fittest†means in terms of evolutionary biology.
Par for the course for IDists, naturally.
—
Uh,
Natural Selection… er.. survival of the fittest… er.. predator vs. prey = survival of the fittest.. which bogus angle should I be taking on that pic?
I’ve got it…mutations… yeah… mutations over time… and just to be safe.. every 20 years or so we’ll add another billion years to the equation… because over time, through changes in DNA the first mammals who were “mice like creatures who survived the exinction of the dinosaurs by living under ground” Holt Biology c. 1997 actually changed into the feline depicted in Phil Plaits choice of picture.
———————————————————–
# Chris Pon 25 Jul 2007 at 12:02 pm —
“are you saying that science is a PEST and religion is the hunter? Do you go further to say that science is futile and circular in it’s thinking while religion is based on individuality and intelligence”
–
I say that EVOLUTION (and phils false lumping in as ’science’) is the PEST.
Read the definition of science from dictionary.com…
Evolution is a theory, or I say a Hypothesis… it is not in the testible catagory… and has NOT been physically observed… read it and weap everyone… evolution cannot be lumped in as “science”…
Rather it is “theoretical science”… much like “theoretical physics” it must be PROVED… and thus falls into theoretical sciences, not ACTUAL REAL science.
sci·ence [sahy-uhns]
–noun 1. a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws: the mathematical sciences.
2. systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation.
3. any of the branches of natural or physical science.
4. systematized knowledge in general.
5. knowledge, as of facts or principles; knowledge gained by systematic study.
6. a particular branch of knowledge.
7. skill, esp. reflecting a precise application of facts or principles; proficiency
As for the “circular reasoning” that I’m referring to…
I’m talking about the Geologic column and the fact that IT is the foundation of Evolutionary dating and geologic dating… and because it is FALSE .. any underlying hypothesis based upon that foundation is FALSE.
If you have NO idea what I’m talking about w/ respect to the geologic column… i.e. Dating the layers of Rock/Strata by index fossils… and then turning right around and dating the index fossils by the layers of rock they are found in…
You will quickly see that dating fossils by the rocks, and rocks by the fossils is an insane way to try to determine the age of things.
Some will say that we use radio-carbon dating or isotope dating.. but when you look these methods up.. guess what they use as the “key” to determine the “age range” to use… yep.. they use the false geologic column based upon circular reasoning.
When you submit a rock, fossil etc.. to have it isotope or radio carbon dated, they always ask you where you found it… what layer etc..
People have given recently deceased SNAIL shells, and falsely told the “daters” where they found it… the live snail shell was dated 15,000 years old…
When you date anything using isotopes or carbon dating, a large range of numbers are actually produced… some very young.. some “billions” of years old… the “daters” then look at where you said you found the object, and PICK the date which closest matches the geologic column.
So to give a longwinded answer to your question.. I AM INDEED referring to YOUR “evolutionary science”.. which ironically isn’t really science at all.
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# Chipon 25 Jul 2007 at 12:37 pm
Mike J – If you have kids, are you going to proudly urge them to fight and die in wars for Bush, Cheney, Jesus and Oil?
————-
Dude, I voted for Harry Brown in the 2000 election, and John Kerry in 2004.. when I lived in missouri I voted for Carnahan (D), and when I moved to Boulder in 2005 I voted independent across the board where I could and Democrat for governor, and senator..
This is the problem that I actually ran into Phil Plait w/ as well.. when I made the suppostion about Eris and Dysnomia… he labelled me as Right wing… phil can be a block head sometimes ;^) , but other times he’s right on about political things…
this is where YOU come in… just because I don’t “believe” in evolution like YOU believe in it… does that mean somehow i’m against the troops, or right wing or whatever?!
My best friend.. the best man in my wedding, joined the marines last year … my father was in the US Navy in Korea and Vietnam.. I served in the Navy for 4 years 1994-1998… So where do you , phil, or anyother armchair liberal-general-at-arms get off talking down to me, or any other “creationist” from your faux-ivory tower of intellectual superiority… when you can’t even acknowledge (or for that matter realize) that you’re side engages in circular reasoning, and ad-hominem attacks based upon ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.
You know, its funny, phil never retracted the “right wing” comment about me, despite me revealing my voting record when it comes to “political parties”… and you will, most likely , never recant the “jesus, oil,” crap that you cling on to like a childhood blanket.
so have a nice day..
“I do happen to know that a creationist school has opened up in Gateshead near Newcastle Upon Tyne, with the approval of our own christian whack job ex pm Tony Blair.”
TonyJ, the Council of Europe has issued a very good draft resolution titled “The dangers of creationism in education” http://assembly.coe.int/main.asp?Link=/documents/workingdocs/doc07/edoc11297.htm
It will not be a binding policy for the EU member states, but it might be worth drawing the attention of our European MPs to it.
So let me see if I get this straight:
In Texas, students can be taught about all the creationist theories (and let us remember that Christianity is only ONE of MANY) but they will not be taught about the scientific methodology used to develop evolutionary theory nor will they be taught what generations of scientists have proved about our evolution through repeated trials.
Sorry, but it sure sounds to me like the witch doctors will now be welcomed in to the school to teach while the bio-chemists will be barred at the door.
And does this also mean that since the religious sects are driving the state sponsored education, paid for by the taxpayers, that the taxpayers can now turn around and teach biology in Sunday school? Seems only fair to me!
>>> here in the uk we have very few fundamentalists
Ha ha ha! Good one!
Oh, wait, you meant strictly *Christian* fundamentalists.
To be honest, I’d rather deal with the occasional idiot creationist than the occasional idiot bomb.
Anyway:
http://education.guardian.co.uk/schools/story/0,,1728235,00.html
And isn’t there a “creationist school” in Middlesbrough? Or did I dream that?
If there was ever a horror film made strictly for scientists (and I mean REAL scientists) THIS would be part of the plot.
It’s amazing the work done by scientists to allow us to better understand the world (and universe, for that matter) should be undone by the people we put in charge.
That should not be allowed to happen.
A new Dark Ages looms ahead if this stuff continues to spread.
It MUST be stopped.
“Evolution is a theory, or I say a Hypothesis… it is not in the testible catagory… and has NOT been physically observed… read it and weap everyone… evolution cannot be lumped in as “scienceâ€â€¦ ”
Three words for you MikeJ…
WRONG. WRONG. WRONG.
# The Bad Astronomeron 25 Jul 2007 at 12:23 pm
I’d like to thank MikeJ for confirming everything I have written about him in previous posts
—————————–
I have disclosed my voting history for your review in this forum, a comment which I see you did not approve or have deleted… I have voted Democrat in the 2004, and 2006 elections in Missouri and Colorado respectively. In 2000 I voted for independent Harry Brown of the “green party”. I beieve in a womans right to choice, and fully support the idea of social security.
I don’t however believe in Evolution.
Please consider this a fore-warning of legal action if you do not retract your slander of me in print form.
Do you know what “legally liable” means? Especially in the printing/publication industry (which you indirectly yet, legally belong to)… you need to do some research on the blogger Deb Frisch, and how she was taken to court and sued to retract her fraudulent blogging which she presented as fact…
From dictionary .com
li·a·ble [lahy-uh-buhl]
–adjective 1. legally responsible: You are liable for the damage caused by your action.
Trust me Phil, Deb Frisch demonstrated that bloggers are NOT covered by Section 230 of the communications decency act.. because you , as blog owner have said these false things about me being “right wing” etc..
Take the false information, or all information about me down, or I will be contacting legal representation.
Since we both live in Boulder it won’t be too hard for our laywers to meet.
Its up to you.. leave the lies about me up, or take them down, but to further dig your hole deeper, when I was proved right about Eris and Dysnomia (by mike brown himself broadcast on the science channel), and when I make known my voting record to dispell the “myth” that I’m a right winger.
these days, to call someone a “political right winger” can be considered “damaging”… especially when I don’t approve of the republican agenda one iota.
Do the right thing for once Phil, and retract your statements.
[…] Phil Plait does a good assessment of this, and he ends with: It’s a disease, a virus, and now the brains of millions of schoolchildren in Texas are at risk. Worse, Texas (along with California) has an unusually large influence on what textbooks get used in the rest of the country, because they are such a large market for the publishers. If this antiscience, anti-intellectual, anti-reality man gets to help choose what textbooks go in Texas, then you parents out there who are reading this in New Hampshire, in Wyoming, in Oregon, in Virginia — your own kids are at risk here too. […]
Well,
First of all, I lived in Dallas 22 years and loved Texas. I think your comments about the religious being anti-religious shows your ingnorance. Some of the most prominent scientist working at the moment are Christiians. Some have become Christians as they do their research. One such reseacher is Drl Carl Baugh. (http://www.creationevidence.org/cemframes.html)
Maybe you should try reading some of the work of these guys. You might get an education (who knows)
Meanwhile, I am going to be complimenting Rick Perry for his GREAT choice!
As if Texans weren’t dumb enough. Ah, but science is just witchcraft. Burn the witches! Burn the witches!
“did not include possible flaws in Charles Darwin’s theory”
It seems perfectly reasonable to fully teach a Theory. Including any possible flaws.
“it’s also unconstitutional to teach religion as science.”
You seems to have pulled this out of nowhere. I don’t see where any of the people you are insulting are advocating that religion be taught. They are not even forbidding Darwin’s theory. Thay are not even claiming it is flawed. They are simply demanding that all aspects of the theory, including possible flaws, be taught. My science teachers were not creationists and they always mentioned possible flaws in every theory they taught.
Sounds very reasonable; its almost intellectual.
shut the hell up… wah wah wah, lets bitch and moan some more…
If you dont like the influences of the school board, how bout you take a moment out of your busy lives and teach your kids something yourself
Is it my imagination or is the amount of global stupidity going up exponentially each year?
At this rate we’ll have devolved back into monkeys by 2020.
I’m from Texas. I’m an atheist. I am going to kill myself. (bang, I just died).
@ the Texas is the stupidest place on earth guy: Kansas is worse. (I like to think so).. and I have 142 IQ from tickle…
Just exactly what do they teach at The University of Texas Dental Branch? I find it hard to imagine how someone believing what he does ever qualified as a DDS….
Mike J, you keep proving you don’t understand science. A “theory” is a tested, and peer reviewed. Evolution is seen on a small scale constantly, and we can see evidence of it in fossil records. The “theory” arguement is used by people with no technical background with no understanding of the scientific process. You are flat out wrong in your understanding of scientific terminology. No concessions, you are wrong. To use the “theory” arguement, Gravity is just a theory, so is relativity. Heliocentric theory, the kinetic theory of gases, and quantum theory are also just theories. A scientific theory is not philisophical and not open to debate. If you really want to see evolution in action, all you have to do is look at Drug Resistant diseases, They mutated and survived the drugs, voila natural selection.
I live in Austin, which is a moderate, if not liberal place (in Texas!). I love it here and I think this is the only place I could live in Texas. However, I highly doubt we can be comforted in any way that there are some outspoken thinkers.
I had the experience of going to the UT Natural History museum a few weeks back where they had an exhibit on evolution. It was small, but represented what I have seen in my school studies and in my own reading. Overall I was pleased with it, so I decided to leave a comment at the suggestion box, which also happened to display the comments of past people. I was absolutely blown away at the number of comments refuting the evolutionary evidence not to mention with pretty shocking language. The most frightening was the fact that many of the comments appeared to be written by children. They made similar arguments such as “I am not related to a monkey. I don’t look like one”. While this may have been from the fact that the display had children compare hand size and facial features to different apes, I have seen this in other settings too. Perhaps there are pamphlets being distributed somewhere that tells creationists to push this point? Regardless, the comment log book shook me up a bit, and gives me even more reason to contest this appointment.
Even if you are complacent with accepting evolution, creationists desire to push this view out of existence and replace it with a false one(my own opinion). Worse, they are willing to fight for this right, ironically similar to the passion of those Muslim people many creationists also misunderstand and spew hatred towards. Please do something about this, regardless of if you are in Texas or not. Write to Perry. Write to your congressman. Write to anyone you know. Help Texans that care, because there are many more that don’t.
As a final note, I will say that I made various drawings of the Flying Spaghetti Monster and submitted them for the comment book : ).
Personally I don’t understand the basis of the belief that creationism should be taught in a biology class, and why it’s gotten as far as it has.
People such as this believe that science is anti-religious, evolution in particular. But the truth is science cannot be pro or anti religious — it is beyond it’s scope. Science deals with knowledge gathered through observation and experimentation, and only makes predictions, theorys, laws that can be supported or dis-proven by observation. As such, God as an intangible being, or any thing that is beyond our view is beyond the scope of science.
Since biology is a science class it should only teach children the theories of science, whether they be fact, ‘guesses’ or completely wrong (of course I would hope this would be in the absence of something better). Teaching Creationism in Biology is like teaching ancient Egyptian in English class.
“It’s a disease, a virus…”
I do not appreciate the way you refer to Christian philosophy. This sounds like the words of Hitler about the Jews. Are you going to suggest that Christians shouldn’t be given the same opportunities in public life? Don’t you trust that our system of government is designed so that wise men and women can debate the issues and make the best decisions? It doesn’t mean mistakes aren’t made, but if the people don’t like what someone’s doing, they boot him out. You need to understand that it is every person’s right to make their own choices and believe how they want. Your kind of thinking will have all of us Christians in concentration camps within 20 years. Perhaps you would like to see that happen.
Speaking of creationism… from my blog today (cambler.livejournal.com):
From MSNBC - LORENZAGO DI CADORE, Italy - Pope Benedict XVI said the debate raging in some countries — particularly the United States and his native Germany — between creationism and evolution was an “absurdity,†saying that evolution can coexist with faith.
The pontiff, speaking as he was concluding his holiday in northern Italy, also said that while there is much scientific proof to support evolution, the theory could not exclude a role by God.
“They are presented as alternatives that exclude each other,†the pope said. “This clash is an absurdity because on one hand there is much scientific proof in favor of evolution, which appears as a reality that we must see and which enriches our understanding of life and being as such.
MY COMMENTS:
Okay, look, Ben, it’s simple: creationism says that everything we see and know was created, in-state, some 6000 years ago. That claim simply cannot co-exist with evolution. It’s flat-out not possible.
Unless you’re prepared to back-off of the 6000 year Young-Earth claim, it’s a non-starter. And even if you are prepared to accept the billion-year timeline, how are you going to explain away the fact that creationism claims that mankind was created, in-state, in the form of Adam and Eve? That claim, also, is flat-out not compatible with modern evolutionary theory.
To say that evolution can coexist with faith is to say that evolution is, indeed, true, and perhaps God touched the whole thing off, billions of years ago. But the Bible claims otherwise, Ben, and I don’t hear you saying that it’s wrong.
You can’t have it both ways, Ben.
I’m not from Texas, but if I were from Texas I’d be demeaning the best text books in Chemistry and Physics possible. Lets see this guy attempt to ruin these subjects via the Religion debate.
Mike J
While most here do not agree with you, including myself, you sound like a smart guy. Now, the legal threat is childish and if you have any legal sense whatsoever you will know that just about every judge in America would throw out a libel/defamation case that involved any journalist calling someone a “rightwinger.” Accusing someone of being a rightwinger is all a matter of perception; to some green party or socialist party members, a moderate Democrat might be a rightwinger. Joe Lieberman, a former life-long Democrat, was repeatedly called a rightwinger during both his last primary and general campaigns. This label, and many, many others, is part of politics. If you don’t like it, don’t play.
MikeJ: ” I don’t however believe in Evolution.”
Then what do you believe in?
MikeJ: “I say that EVOLUTION (and phils false lumping in as ’science’) is the PEST. ”
Why do you think that it is a pest?
MikeJ: “Evolution is a theory, or I say a Hypothesis… it is not in the testible catagory… and has NOT been physically observed… read it and weap everyone… evolution cannot be lumped in as “scienceâ€â€¦”
Evolution is a theory, and has been proven time and time again. If evolution didn’t occur, wouldn’t we have had AIDS, SARS, etc. since the Fall?
MikeJ: ” sci·ence [sahy-uhns]”
It does have the words FACTS in there, which religion does not.
MikeJ: ” Some will say that we use radio-carbon dating or isotope dating.. but when you look these methods up.. guess what they use as the “key†to determine the “age range†to use… yep.. they use the false geologic column based upon circular reasoning.”
They don’t use geologic column data for radio-carbon or isotope dating; you’re simply mistaken.
MikeJ: ” People have given recently deceased SNAIL shells, and falsely told the “daters†where they found it… the live snail shell was dated 15,000 years old… ”
That’s because it’s not meant for biological material.
Is it my imagination or is the amount of global stupidity going up exponentially each year?
At this rate we’ll have devolved back into monkeys by 2020.
“intellectuals are no … worthier as exemplars, than the … priests of old.”
Well, at least McLeroy is skeptical of priests…
(I wonder who he thinks wrote and compiled the bible.)
hey CafeenMan, in reply to your post, understandably you are upset, but I find it slightly ironic that you claim religion is totally false but yet make a religion out of not being religious if you know what I mean.
Hey Mike J. Have you ever heard of Frivolous Litigation? They can end in Firm sanctions and requirement of reimbursement for defendants fees, as well as for the opening of possibility for countersuit and pursuit of damages.
Also, Did you actually read the Deb Frisch case? She used vulgar terms and in many cases repeatedly stalked and harrassed her victims. She specifically called people “Vermin” and “cowards” and harrassed them impersonating an NPR reporter in one incident. Furthermore, she had a repeated record of harrassment on the University of Oregon campus. “Right Wing” is not damaging under the law, it doesn’t associate you with any illegal groups or illicit behavior. I would suggest reading case details and notes. Instead you choose to follow the typically american sue happy culture and threaten legal action without proper knowledge of the cases you are referencing. Bringing up the Deb Frisch case is an improper and otherwise unjustified analogy. Oh ya, and for the record she also called an attorney “Guilty of Malpractice”, “Grossly incompetent” and “A Denver Shyster with a faux-phallus around his neck”. To a lawyer these are potentially damaging statements to his career. That’s Libel.
Furthermore, You have consistently proven you do not understand basic science concepts, like what a theory in the scientific community is. It is peer reviewed and tested and stands up to scientific scrutiny. If you read the Dover case trial conclusions you will find that all ID points were countered by biologists and determined to be inconclusive and in some cases deliberately false. If you really want to see evolution in action and Natural Selection just look at tuberculosis over the last 100 years and the evolution of XDR-TB. As incomplete treatments allowed mutant survivors of TB to spread the disease began to become immune to more and more treatments. This didn’t happen overnight it happened over many years and gradual changes in the TB Bacterium. God didn’t one day create XDR-TB, this is evolution in action.
I heard that Mike J steals candy from small children.
(MJ- you can sue me too. In fact- Anyone called Michael J. including Michael Jackson and MJ Fox has my permission to try suing me for my libelous remarks, which lower the status of MJ’s everywhere.)
Just to show that many Christians also think this is absurd, here is an interesting read…
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19956961/
Hard to believe the Catholic church would actually be the progressives on anything, but here you have it. The leader of over 1 billion Christians supports evolution and thinks we are obligated to do something about global warming. I am not a devout Catholic myself, but I learned of evolution from biology classes at a Catholic school and learned of Genesis in religion class, where it belongs. I don’t think anyone there, including the religion teacher, ever gave a second thought to actually taking Genesis literally. Growing up in predominately Catholic South Louisisana, I didn’t even have any idea people actually believed the earth is 6000 years old until I left!
I am from Texas. I opposed the both Iraq wars. I did not vote for W, even the first time. All the previous just to get out of the way the unrelated nonsense written by some in here.
We also home school and advocate the separation of government and schooling.
My 2 oldest sons take a Stanford Standarized test and score way above their peers. My oldest’s scores have been higher than 90 percentile and his SAT and ACT are high enough to be at the lower range of merit scholarship.
We are creationists. Oh, the horror.
Don’t live in Texas? Butt out. We already got too many people moving in from liberal utopias elsewhere.
And the Bush family are a bunch of blue-bloods Connecticut.
MikeJ,
How did you get everything so mixed up? Parents? Teachers? Brain-washing mentor?
Science, may be observational, but if we were to ignore the theories we wouldn’t have any more science to observe.
To use evolution as an example, or Charles Darwin’s Theory of Evolution, we observe it at a deep level in nature. Since you are so familiar with real science, I’m sure you’re familiar with the Journal - Science Daily.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/07/070712143300.htm
I mean, some theories have had very little proof (ie… i dunno, let’s say creationism)… But some, like relativity, circuit theory, or computational algorithm theory - are you suggesting that we just do not teach kids about these, because they are theoretical? And, even if you are, why stick creationism in?! How would you just let them not know about our best, most logical findings (thats what a taught scientific theory is.)
Scientific theory, is a crucial aspect of science - not some separate entity that you try to describe in attempt to make yourself feel better. Without it, there is no science.
At a certain point, many theories have become the accepted understanding of a scientific situation after scientific observation and testing - something you claim the Theory of Evolution has not had.
The Theory of Evolution describes how an animal species would slowly develop, through many generations, as the forces of nature allowed for certain survival traits. Now, how about the “observation” and “laboratory testing” that takes place in DNA analysis of various species, both in terms of preserved remains and presently found species?
It seems that you are a corruptly minded individual - possibly trying to make it seem like they are an educated scientist when you are not that at all.
I have opposed both Iraq wars. I did not vote for W, not even the first time he ran for POTUS.
I think that Governor Rick “good hair” Perry and the Lt. Governor David “Did Worst” Dewhurst have been a disaster for Texas. Only that the Democrats would have been a worse catastrophe. Now that I dispensed with some of the unrelated nonsense that some hav written.
If you are not from Texas, butt out. We already have too many individuals from liberal utopias elsewhere trying to import what they escaped.
We advocate the separation of government and schooling.
We home school.
Our two oldest sons take the Stanford Standarized Test every year and score very high. Since they began taking the SSTs they have always scored 3 to 4 grades above, ie post high scool comptency. My oldest son scores consistently above 90 percentile and his brother is close behind. My oldest SAT and ACT scores have placed in him in the lower range for a Merit Scholarship.
And we are creationists. Oh, the horror.
It doesn’t amaze me to see how ignorant people are time and time again
Since when does religion eliminate the facts of science? The true FACTS of science are few and far between….whats wrong with saying “Well, this is an IDEA we have, but its not 100% set in stone yet because….we are still learning about it”…..IE: Evolution
Heaven forbid if someone take a sceptical and thought provoking perspective on something (such as science OR religion for that matter)
Nothing in this world, NOTHING….can be proven to be 100% true, any scientist can tell you that…even if its 99.9999999% proven to be right…there is still that chance, that it will be proven wrong….
If you believe in ultimate fact, if you believe in 100% anything, then you are failing to understand the subjectiveness of reality
Science or Religion, pick your poison
If anything, they should teach the repurcussions of ideas such as how people can spin SCIENCE OR RELIGION to pursue personal needs….Darwins theory on the origin of species lead to the ideas of genetics, and Galtons Hereditary Genius……combined, this lead to Social Darwinism, the idea that “small companies” will fail to thrive, leading to big bussiness’s success during the rail road tycoon days of the late 1800’s - early 1900’s, giving way to social programs and Eugenics, the sterilization of the blind and the diseased……
Sadly, though most people are unaware, The United states started its own Eugenics programs in the early 1900s, sterilizing alot of African Americans, Poor, sick, and seen as “genetically unfit” people, in 27 states….
Meanwhile, in the high anxiety climate of Central Europe (Germany), Adolf Hitler and the Socialist movement (Nazi Party), implemented thier own (adopted) policy of American Eugenics on the “unfit” and “disease barring” Jewish population….leading to Genocide, and the death of millions of people around the world
So, people like to blame religion as the center fold for the deaths of millions, people like to believe that World War II was a ‘religious’ war, because of the religious implications and the targeting of Gods Chosen “The Jews”…..but in reality, it was a scientific one, an evolutionary one….the Jews were singled out as a race hiding behind a religious guise (as identified by Hitler), and were believed to be genetically inferior…..and Germany needed to be rid of the “cultural bearers” the “seedy and greedy merchants” that polluted thier country with impure genetic mutants…
Also, let us consider the development of the A-bomb….a scientific breakthrough!!! One bomb wipes out millions and atomic radiation pollutes the area on civilians in Japan…..
Thats score TWO for science!!!!
Sadly enough, the majority of the soldiers in WWII that fought for the United States were….wait for it…..Christians……
So the God loving God fearing Christians had to go in and wipe the ass of the power hungry, evolution loving scientists, because yes, eugenics and ’survival of the fittest’ and ‘hereditary genes’ helped ensure that the rich could use all thier assets to create monopolies and control the work force….
wait….thats score THREE for science…..
nah, lets blame it all on religion cause its easier to do
everyone likes to say science is good, and religion is bad, for whatever reasons they can muster…..but in reality, there are pros and cons to everything, so think about the WHOLE PICTURE
[…] I’m now living in a state where the Governor thinks that a creationist is just who we need running the schools. Absolutely wonderful. I’d say more, but the Bad Astronomer did a much better job. […]
My apologies for the duplication. It did not seem that the first reponse had posted.
I’m a science educator in Texas. This news was very disappointing. I know that my students won’t be receiving any of the creationist rhetoric he manages to get inserted into the curriculum. They’ll have to fire me before I teach mythology in my science classroom.
There’s nothing wrong with creationism. In fact, even many people who believe in evolution also believe in creationism on some level (ie where did the big bang come from).
“Pssst! Someone needs to tell him it’s also unconstitutional to teach religion as science.”
Actually it’s not unconstitutional to teach religion as science. Seperation of church and state means that the government can’t impose a particular religion on it’s citizens. there is no part of the constitution that says schools can’t teach religion as science.
Why is it a bad thing to present different views of an arguement? Are you all that concerned that evolution can’t hold up to creationism?
Evolution doesn’t hold all the answers. There’s still LOTS of unanswered questions and holes in the theory, but few are ever taught in the schools. For example, there’s not been a single transitional fossil found, with the millions of fossils that we’ve found. Also, how do we account for the same traits/abilities being evolved almost identically multiple times?
I would like to say, I live in Texas right outside of Dallas. This sickens me beyond reason. I want my kids to grow up and understand science, where we came from and where we are going. I for one don’t know if there was an overall creator of everything. I do know that we are not going to go anywhere without science and trying to puzzle things out.
I think that this is more of the Religious Right Wing sect of our goverment trying to force more of their beliefs on the public. I think if they want to do this leave it to the proffesionals standing behind the pulpit and let our children learn what they are supposed to in school. Not fill our school books with mythology that has no scientific fact.
Sorry it just gets me when people start trying to force religion or anything else they think that we all should believe in down my throat. This is not what I voted for…
Phil
Great post! Please keep fighting the good fight against backward thinking and anti-science.
Mike J
Radiological dating uses the halflife of an isotope to establish timing based on natural abundance as a start point and the cessation of isotope replenishment on cell and animal death. The geological column is used as a means of corroboratory evidence which itself was independantly determined by the same methods. So your circular reasoning is actually faithful application of the scientific method
Also why post the definition of science if you want to claim evolution doesn’t belong there? Even being extremely anal about the definition of science all I can say is I can’t experiment in evolution. I can observe its effects through the fossil record which shows successive changes to anatomy as a function of time (which is covered above). Evolution is knowledge gained through systematic study. How is that not science?
I’d suggest that you don’t know what science is all about.
You observe an effect, you either simultaneously observe the cause or you form a hypothesis about the origin of the effect and you set out to prove said hypothesis through further observation or experimentally. You may succeed you may fail, but if you succeed it you should be able to predict the outcome of an experiment which relies on this principle.
Here the initial observation is that there are many species in existence, and some fossils appear similar to living creatures. Darwin proposes the theory that evolution is the cause of this. Further observation involves finding more fossils.
Here the prediction is that I will either find a fossil (A) which is younger than fossil (B) and show a continuing trend away from fossil (C) which is older than (A). Or I will find C having already collected A and B.
Is this pattern repeatable and predictable? YES! This has borne itself out thousands of times. If that isn’t science perhaps you’ll kindly inform us of what your view is.
Like the non-creationists have been doing such a good of a job prior?
Frazw: So, when the Cosmos and the Earth formed there were no isotopes? Is that your assumption?
The first story I heard on the news this morning was that, in the wake of the ridiculous “No Child Left Behind” legislation, schools have pared down other courses in favor of math and reading (the two benchmarks used to get funding under NCLB). Unsurprisingly, science was one of the subject areas noted.
I wonder who among the next generation of biblical literalists will be able to run the corporations, the governments and the schools without the need to outsource jobs to other countries that take education as a matter of importance rather than of confirmation of faith.
Per BA… “At least he doesn’t think the Sun revolves around the Earth… and that is the best thing I can say about him.”
I suspected you would find his comparision of evolution theory to Heliocentrism (your arena of knowledge) rather silly. Heliocentrism isn’t even a valid theory any longer (the Sun is not the center of the universe and orbits are not circular with epicycles), so McLeroy had both theories labeled incorrectly! [Tycho’s model was arguably better until parallax was found.] Further, had he been around in the late 1500’s, what are the chances Dr. McLeroy would have approved the anti-religious Copernican Theory? [Insert colorful phrase or hyperbole here. :)]
Your reason for concern is certainly justified. It is likely his appointment will not be a good thing for Texas science classes. I hope we are both wrong, of course.
When the cosmos were created no because isotopes require the formation of nuclei which at the point of the big bang had not formed.
By the time the earth had formed yes there were plenty of isotopes to go around
As a person who grew up in Texas, I wouldn’t worry about creationism sneaking into text books. Why? Well, not a whole lot of students read text books. It’s one of many reasons why there are so many dumb kids coming out of high school who can’t read or write above a 3rd grade level.
There is also a ‘No child left behind’ policy in our schools now, this means text books and lessons are geared towards passing standardized tests. If creationism isn’t on the test, it’s not going to be a focus in class rooms.
Robert Alexander said “Perhaps us people in California can…”
If you wish to pass yourself off as being of superior intelligence to those of us who live in Texas, I suggest you rewrite this sentence using we instead of us.
Don’t think the last attempt went up so again…
At the beginning of the cosmos, i.e. the big bang there were no nuclei so isotopes didn’t exist.
At the beginning of the earth there were plenty.
The natural abundance of each will have been different in comparison with today but it is easy to extrapolate backwards if the halflife is known.
I often see people go “I don’t/I do believe in evolution”…
Hey, excuse me, but evolution isn’t a matter of BELIEF. It’s a well supported scientific theory. Facts don’t require beliefs and are NOT beliefs.
criminy - and my daughter will be school-age in a very few year. One of the very last things I want happening is to have one of these right-wing f***tards trying to sneak the bible into her schoolroom. If I want her to learn about religion, I’ll take her to a church of some sort.
I think it’s time to call in The All-Powerful Flying Spaghetti Monster to smite them - or, stain their Klan robes at the very least.
Oh - and if ya’ll do decide to build some sort of death-ray to wipe Texas off the map, can you at least give those of us who don’t drive white pickups a heads-up so we can skeedaddle first?
Hey - Mike J is Mike Janitch. I remember you. You deleted some of *my* comments from *your* blog. I remember you making all kinds of ridiculous arguments in favor of young earth creationism. What, you’ve converted to ID now? Or is “ID” merely a cover so that you aren’t immediately attacked for your ridiculous young earth creationist ideas? Now you’re claiming to have voted for democrats? Here’s a link for everyone to read - it’s the Bad Astronomer’s earlier post on Mike Janitch’.
http://www.badastronomy.com/bablog/2006/09/14/neo-con-twist-on-xena-eris/
Unfortunately, Mike has cleared his website, so I can’t link to his earlier argument that astronomers *really* don’t know that the sun is powered by nuclear fusion. He claimed that the idea was merely dreamed up.
Wrong.
That doesn’t make it right.
The Supreme Court disagrees with you. Fortunately, their opinion is the one that counts.
Because one side is clearly, and demonstrably, wrong.
Let’s find out. You present your evidence, and we’ll present ours. As soon as you get some, that is.
Standard creationist crap that’s been spouted and debunked forever. Get it through your head, even if you could completely disprove evolution, it doesn’t support creationism in the slightest. Period.
[…] 25th, 2007 by tinyfrog [via The Bad Astronomer] Texas governor Rick Perry has appointed a Don McLeroy (creationist) to head the Texas State Board […]
First… Whether you believe in the creationist or evolutionist concepts, in the end we all have to have faith that God had a hand in it.
Secondly…. For the deeply religous. Beware of those who teach you by interpeting the word of God to meet their own narrow minded convictions. Remember the false prophets!
Finally, who are we to determine the how, why or in what manner in which God created us. All we need to know, is that he gave us “free will” to determine and reason our existance and relationship to him. I believe there is more evidence to support the concepts of evolution while still believing in God and the holy scriptures.
Remember…. With God.. A day is like a million years and with God, time is a concept that He has not yet given us the ability to fully understand. You just have to have faith that all will become known to you when He feels the time is right.
Well, I guess when I have kids I’ll have to move. So Texas is out, Kansas is out, Oklahoma will probably go if it hasn’t already. Is Colorado still safe? I’ve always thought I might like to live there.
It’s a shame that someone that believes in something so fundamentally wrong would be running public schools. Maybe he should put warnings on the Pythagorean theorem because it is “just a theory”. Please don’t be so quick to condemn all republicans or Christians for this. Yes, YECs are very likely to be republican. But, I am Catholic and went to Catholic school and *not once* was I taught anything other than evolution. Then again, Catholics are hardly considered evangelical. Those with kids, pay close attention to what the schools are teaching them, science especially. Don’t be afraid to teach things contrary to the school’s teacher.
/soapbox
>>last year I explained to a young man of 23 yrs at my workplace what stars where. Yes, really, I had to do this. His response was this… â€So those stars in the sky, you mean they’re not really small, they’re just really far away.â€
wow.
I am a born again Christian, old-universe creatiionist, and *I* almost wept to hear this.
“…and did not include possible flaws in Charles Darwin’s theory of how life on Earth evolved from lower forms.”
Which other scientific fields would you say discussing possible flaws in the existing model would be an unacceptable exercise?
That is, after all, -the very basis of all scientific progress-.
Overall, though, nice straw-man rant, if a little less successful at hiding the overt bias than most.
“First… Whether you believe in the creationist or evolutionist concepts, in the end we all have to have faith that God had a hand in it.”
- Why? Who says so? Your book? The one that was written in the iron age by nomadic tribes who believed in demons, a flat world, and the sun circling the earth? Just think, the “dark ages” were the far future to these people. They had no means or knowledge of explaining the events of nature.
“Secondly…. For the deeply religious. Beware of those who teach you by interpreting the word of God to meet their own narrow minded convictions. Remember the false prophets!”
- OK, so how about “real” prophets. Do you actually believe that another human being “channels” with deities?
“Remember…. With God.. A day is like a million years and with God, time is a concept that He has not yet given us the ability to fully understand…”
- And you KNOW this how? Where’s your evidence?
Why is it that apparently intelligent people, who would demand facts from doctors, accountants, and businesses of all kinds simply accept what some ancient tribes slammed together into a book? A book that was translated over and over and over again. We don’t even know who was or wasn’t behind the grassy knoll, and that’s in our lifetimes.
All I ask is that you keep an open mind - just once - and actually read Richard Dawkin’s book: The God Delusion; actually step through the logic and the clear evidence presented there. I know you won’t, but there’s always hoping…
@ Jaime,
I’m hoping you let your wife handle the english and science lessons for your kids. Give you more time to focus on the libertarian poly sci lesson plan.
I just wanted to be the 100th comment.
@ Jaime,
I’m hoping you let your wife handle the science and english lessons for the kids.
Rephrase that as “Republicans in Texas are bunch of &*@(@*&@ douchebags”
If you like you can leave “in Texas” off.
Let it be said for the record, I never solicited Phil Plait, or his attention…
Phil Plait came to MY blog, which was listed under “personal” no less.. and cherry picked a comment/supposition I made about Eris and Dysnomias naming process.
He then went on to Huffington Post, and labelled me as a right wing fanatic etc… as most people know.. huff po gets about 1,000,000 readers a day if not more… all because I made (a CORRECT) supposition on some stupid planet naming process by a bunch of astronomers who I really could give two craps about…
So Phil Plait does fit the description of Deb Frisch.. he came to my blog, misrepresented the angle I was approaching Eris and Dysnomia, and then without fact checking my political beliefs he went on to syndicate a column across several internet sites (huff po, pharyngula and several others) in which the “headline” of their “story” called me all KINDS of names.
So frivality doesn’t really cross my mind when I go back and read the stuff he wrote about me… if he was challenged to PROVE what he said about me in court, he’d lose bigtime… all i’d have to do is produce my college thesis, voting record, or other various manifestos that I’ve written over the years to prove I’m not right wing.. thats for sure..
Or you could just ask my wife or my friends.. heh.
Please direct the “no transitional fossils” crowd here
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html
There is also a rather nice example of what creationist predictions on fossils would be given their biblical explanations and of course how they match up with reality.
Can I just ask why it might be that as more scientific evidence supporting the theory of evolution arises, the creationists pull more unreasoned magic out of the hat?
Hey I’d be the first to admit I’m was a little disappointed when I realised magic wasn’t real as a kid but now when I see a magic trick that I don’t know the secret behind I can marvel at the spectacle created but I love finding out how its done. I don’t invent new magic to cover up the fact I really know how its done but don’t want to believe.
P.S. Why if God can have existed forever can the universe not? Why must the universe have come from somewhere? Our mind is configured to perceive our own finite world and lives. Is it not possible the mere inability or unwillingness to truly accept the concept of infinity is the reason we are even having this debate? I must however say I’m glad we don’t because that makes a good scientist (but unfortunately also a creationist).
Thanks for the excellent link CS I will read this lengthly document at my leasure, I will post this small part of it to give the people in America a small taste of what Europeans face, :
40. Today, creationists of all faiths are trying to get their ideas accepted in Europe. As a result, we have seen several initiatives from these various movements on the Eurasian continent in the last few years, with schools apparentl