BA vs BS
I know, I said I won’t debate antiscientists, but sometime I feel like I have to dip my toes in the water to keep my chops up, or some other mixed metaphor.
So at 5:00 p.m. central time on Monday December 12 (today!), I’ll be on the radio once again destroying the nonsensical claims of the Moon Hoax purveyor Bart Sibrel (he was the one Buzz Aldrin punched, as seen in the animation). This will be on the Dave Glover show on 97.1 FM St. Louis. Sibrel was invited on, and then they emailed me asking if I would come on as well. I agreed (after some cajoling by a friend), since it’s better to have someone debunking him if he’s to be on anyway.
You can listen live here. I encourage all BABloggers to listen in; comment in real time on this post if you can. I’ll be reading it as the show progresses!
December 11th, 2005 at 11:53 pm
Who are the people in the movie clip?
December 12th, 2005 at 12:51 am
Bart does not care about debate. He’s out to sell books and videos. I can say with certainty he does not believe a word that comes out of his own mouth.
I feel the same way about political wonks like Michael Moore. He’s a businessman servicing a niche market, hence I can’t get excited about what he says one way or another like so many do. It’s an act. And to be fair, same thing with Ann Coulter. She’s out to sell books.
December 12th, 2005 at 1:03 am
Bleah! What a terrible time. I’ll be at work and wn’t be near a cmputer I can get it on.
Will they be achiving it, or will you, or will someone be posting a transcript? Perhaps you can hit him with a moonrock?
I’d love to know his answer to a few things.
How he accounts for the crystalisation and convection waves in the lunar rocks.
How he worked out his 5:1 ratio for time in space between the US and the USSR.
Why he fails to show the so called cutout Earth in his “smoking gun” footage, being blocked out by the window sill of the CM.
I doubt he’d give a straight answer though, they never do, and they they say that NASA stands for Never A Straight Answer. Hah!
-PW- Alias PhantomWolf
December 12th, 2005 at 1:38 am
I’m torn. Dawkins and Gould agreed not to debate pseudoscientists in a public forum on account that it gives the pseudoscientists the oxygen of publicity. On the other hand, if you don’t appear, then there’s no-one to defend the science, and the public is ill-informed. As Bart Simpson said in the genius class, ‘damned if you do, damned if you don’t.’
December 12th, 2005 at 1:41 am
I believe the video clip is Buzz Aldrin socking Bart Sibrel a new one. I wasn’t aware there was video of this.
Of course, violence doesn’t do anyone any good and I’m not sure we should be so proud of this incident.
December 12th, 2005 at 2:26 am
Yeah, if someone would be so kind to record it or provide a transcript, that would be great (will the radio station do that, Phil?)! I’ll be taking one of my many finals during that time.
December 12th, 2005 at 4:38 am
currently i cannot access the player properly, hopefully this will clear itself up by 5pm your time (10 am local)
December 12th, 2005 at 6:47 am
Oh, man, I’ll try and tune in - should be great.
I don’t suppose there’ll be a transcript posted anywhere?
December 12th, 2005 at 6:48 am
GOOD LUCK, Phil!!!!
Just Stick to The Facts, And you’ll Do, Just FINE!!!!
BTW, Any Chance, It’s Going To Be, a Call In Show?
I’d LOVE, To Ask him, Just How Hard, Buzz Aldrin, Hit him!!!
December 12th, 2005 at 8:38 am
Remember, Phil, don’t punch him. It would be wrong.
Unless you think he really deserves it.
-Andy B
December 12th, 2005 at 8:40 am
There are a couple of different angles of this video. Sleezeball Sibrel called Mr. Aldrin and “coward and a liar” and the old timer clocked him good. I’m sure BA has some footage somewhere in the archives.
The longer video explains a lot. Mr. Aldrin was trying to walk through, and asked the sleeze to get away from him. The sleeze refused and got in Mr. Aldrin’s face and called him names, so the former astronaut punched him in the face. Then the sleeze asks if they got that on camera. Probably for some sort of legal suit. However, the proceding video would definitely justify his actions, and I don’t believe anything became of the incident. It was a few years ago.
Don’t let him rile you up Phil. Hatemongers of this sort know no limits. However, I have heard you speak in the past, and you’ll be fine. Tear him a new one!
December 12th, 2005 at 8:56 am
coturnix, the big guy with his back turned is Bart Sibrel, Moon Landing disbeliever, publicity seeker, agent provacateur, and complete jerk. The little old man punching him is Buzz Aldrin, former NASA astronaut, second man to walk on the Moon, former fighter pilot in Korea. The woman is Buzz Aldrin’s daughter.
Christian Burnham, in general I share your disdain for celebrating violence. While we all can get vicarious enjoyment out of watching a loud-mouthed jerk get smacked in the face for his offensive behavior, it isn’t really an appropriate response to mere verbal wrangling. However, in this case, that wasn’t the situation. Bart Sibrel coaxed Buzz Aldrin to the location under false pretenses, pretending to be someone else to interview him. When Buzz showed up, Bart Sibrel and his cameraman ambushed him in front of the hotel, and proceeded to follow Buzz around for several minutes, getting in Buzz’s face and impeding Buzz and Buzz’s daughter’s movements. Buzz told him no comment and get lost. Buzz even asked the hotel desk staff for assistance and to call the police. The punch didn’t occur until after Bart prodded Buzz Aldrin in the chest with a bible and called him a liar and a coward.
Basically Bart was seeking a negative reaction so he could edit it and use it in a video program to “justify” his arguments that we didn’t go to the moon because none of the astronauts will talk to him about it and get upset when he asks. Actually, they won’t talk to him and get upset when he asks because he is a jerk and a stalker and rude and unpleasant and accusing them of lying and essentially of being murderers, since he claims that the Apollo 1 fire was a coverup to prevent Grissom “leaking” the hoax.
For those unaware, Sibrel then tried to get the DA to file charges against Buzz Aldrin for assault (or whatever). I speculate that was mostly a ruse to get Buzz on the stand in court, where he could then try to morph the event into an interrogation into Buzz’s “role in the hoax”. Fortunately, the DA looked into the matter and declined to file charges.
To my mind Buzz was justified. Not because Sibrel is a jerk and a loudmouth, not because he insulted Buzz and Buzz’s honor, not because he’s an attention hound, but because he obstructed Aldrin’s path and wouldn’t take no for an answer, and because he physically acosted Buzz by prodding him in the chest. Even if one could consider Sibrel a working member of the press (and that’s a debatable point), there are limits to what a reporter can and should be able to do to get a story or interview or comment. Physical assault of an interviewee is crossing the line.
December 12th, 2005 at 9:07 am
He’s broke! That’s why he’s out there making money! Haha!
December 12th, 2005 at 9:29 am
I don’t think I’ll be able to listen… I hope the interview is available later on mp3 or something or transcribed.
December 12th, 2005 at 10:37 am
Yeah, that’s Buzz “stoking moquete” on Bart! Reality TV at its best.
http://www.bautforum.com/showpost.php?p=618698&postcount=2
Pin him down. Get into one subject and press him to explain, not jump to something else. If he tries it, shoot down the new topic with a quick rebuttal and drag him back to the original subject.
December 12th, 2005 at 10:56 am
I agree. “Hey, Bart, why didn’t the Soviets expose the hoax? They were watching us harder than anyone, they had every reason to expose a hoax if they even found a hint of one, and not a word. Any thoughts on that, or were they in on it too?”
December 12th, 2005 at 11:16 am
Actually,
While I tend to agree with Christian about the violence, if you’d seen the whole thing, you’d have probably punched the guy as well.
I believe Buzz asked BS to step away at least twice. The man just kept pushing him and calling him a lier. So Buzz fired.
You have to do that sometimes.
I’m sure the BA will put a much bigger hurting on the guy, with his wits, this afternoon. I’m looking forward to listening in.
Rod
BTW: Not a bad punch, for 70. It was just a little high, but not bad. If it was just a touch lower, he’d have knocked the fool out.
December 12th, 2005 at 12:54 pm
OK everyone, I’m aware of the context in which the punch was thrown, but I still don’t think it should be celebrated, even if there were strongly mitigating circumstances. Now, let me get back to watching Reservoir Dogs.
December 12th, 2005 at 12:57 pm
The celebrating does have an air of over-righteousness to it.
December 12th, 2005 at 1:22 pm
While I don’t celebrate violence in general, I think that you have to keep these sorts of things in the appropriate level of perspective. Here, we have a 70+ year old man, lured under false pretexts and then despite repeated comments that he desist, insisted on getting in Buzz’s grill and pushing him around, calling him a liar, a coward and a thief. Sibril is obviously not too bright, because he later claimed that he didn’t see it coming. I think anyone stupid enough to antagonize a Korean combat veteran should either take a step back or be ready to duck.
In fact, Sibrel was obviously trying to get Buzz to punch him, so it is perhaps a little bit disappointing that he succeeded. But on the other hand, the jerk did get a stiff left from a 70+ year old astronaut, and I think contrary to others, you have to celebrate that.
December 12th, 2005 at 1:48 pm
No hitting below the belt,
No biting or scratching,
and no words below two syllables.
December 12th, 2005 at 1:51 pm
The thing is, I don’t believe that Sibrel actually believes we never went to the Moon. He was just trying it on with Buzz for the publicity. So for him to call Buzz a liar was the height of hypocrisy (since BS makes his living out of, well, BS).
Incidentally, I think that all of the Apollo astronauts are total heros. We should never forget that what NASA achieved in the ’60s and early ’70s was nothing short of phenomenal.
December 12th, 2005 at 1:54 pm
You have to be pretty dumb to go picking fights with ex-astronauts like that.
Not for the first time I seem to have brought the Bablog off topic. So apologies and go get ‘im BA!
December 12th, 2005 at 2:39 pm
Well, I can use the player (for all of you getting error 5 just find where the file got downloaded on your Hard Drive (It tells you in truncated form on the error message) and run it from there), however, I’ll be unable to listen during it, and that media player is obnoxious, it takes the top 1/8th of my screen and won’t give it back, so I too shall ask if a recording will be made available for download, if not I may have to try and wrangle my way around a fairly static schedule to listen.
December 12th, 2005 at 2:47 pm
(Ha Ha)
I like the caption when you put your cursor on the video.
December 12th, 2005 at 3:25 pm
*Shameless plug*
http://www.bautforum.com/showpost.php?p=624189&postcount=244
Just in case anyone wants to drop by.
December 12th, 2005 at 4:08 pm
That plug-in makes my firewall throw a hissy fit. I don’t think I want to bother with it.
December 12th, 2005 at 4:13 pm
Well I’m connected and it starts! Go Phil!
December 12th, 2005 at 4:21 pm
Nuts. I didn’t get much chance to talk. They didn’t tell me Micahel Shermer would be on too!
December 12th, 2005 at 4:23 pm
Phil, although this is circumstantial in nature:
Quick question, “Why would the Russians have congratulated us for making it to the moon first?” During those years, they would have been more than happy to point out the simple fact that we didn’t get there. Their radar tracked us, their comm systems intercepted the voice communications and stuff coming from the moon. It would have been VERY easy for them to tell if the signals were coming from elesewhere…..
December 12th, 2005 at 4:23 pm
Oh heck, just read it above…… sorry for the duplicate question
December 12th, 2005 at 4:40 pm
Bart thinks the “Sun is the third planet out?” That’s what he said.
December 12th, 2005 at 4:42 pm
Huh… Who’s Michael Shermer??? O_o
December 12th, 2005 at 4:42 pm
Golly. This is quite rich. He has avoided most of what I’ve said, as I expected, and tries to distract with lots of talk on experts and media. But his theory lives or dies on the evidence he presents, and his evidence is garbage.
December 12th, 2005 at 4:43 pm
Michael Shermer
December 12th, 2005 at 4:46 pm
Perhaps Mr. Sibrel would like to sign up for the next manned moon mission. Then he could either assist in the next cover-up OR he could be convinced once and for all that the moon landings truly happened. Just a thought.
December 12th, 2005 at 4:46 pm
Let’s see if I have this right: (1) He insisits that it is a government conspiracy, but the government knew nothing of it. (2) He’s a film “expert” (what, he took a few picutres?) so we should listen to him, but the BA is an astronomy “expert” and he has been fooled. (3) Experts are good, experts are bad.
WHat has George Washington’s cold got to do with this conversation?
:)
December 12th, 2005 at 4:46 pm
Oh I see!
Anyway, yes, most of this is garbage. If they had to film this, what about the SFX crew and the cameramen? Why are THEY quiet? Did some guy film this with a basement camera instead? Or perhaps were they all killed to be sure about secrecy?
Gimme a break.
December 12th, 2005 at 4:52 pm
Listening to it now, Bart is a bit of a moron, he claims to be “open-minded” but won’t actually accept the truth or admit the possibility of a different view. ahh well. And now he’s comparing it to the OJ Simpson trial. Deus.
December 12th, 2005 at 4:52 pm
Oh heck! That was a low hit. “Oh my! NASA pay him! Don’t listen to him!” Low low low.
December 12th, 2005 at 4:53 pm
as a person coming into this a bit late, the first question asked to Bart was “what would it take for you to say “I was wrong, we went to the moon.” I like that Bart deflected the question immediately by saying “I want to hear the answer to that from Phil and Mike.”
Talk about being afraid to answer a question point blank.
December 12th, 2005 at 4:55 pm
Phil, Well done, as usual!
What you are doing is making sure that anti-science isn’t the only story heard by the public.
Don’t look at it like you are debating an anti-scientist! There is no debate
Keep it up!
December 12th, 2005 at 4:57 pm
I heard the broadcast and I have one big conclusion.
BART IS A HUGE JERK.
You were absolutely right Uncle Phil. I couldn’t believe I was hearing this guy. He insulted you, told people on a NATIONAL BROADCAST that you’re being paid by NASA and inferred that you are being bribed by NASA to say what you’re saying on this broadcast. How dare he.
That shows how unprofessional Barty is. What a dingbat. (The only reason I’m using these pathetic insults is because I can’t curse on here.)
I want to punch him…but much harder than that guy was punching him.
Love you Uncle!
–Dori
December 12th, 2005 at 4:57 pm
Phil, if you notice my “name” above, you know whose grant funded portion of my trip to Las Cruces. I guess I’m a paid NASA flunky, too, eh?
December 12th, 2005 at 4:58 pm
This guy is making me crazy too. I find myself shouting at my computer, “Answer the question, already!!”, but of course he never does. What _would_ it take to convince BS the moon landings were real? It’s hard to think of anything more convincing than we already have, I guess that’s why he didn’t answer…
December 12th, 2005 at 4:59 pm
Well now that it’s done… I’ll have to face up that you’re saying the truth: Debating these guys is plain useless. No matter what you say, they stand there and shake their head denying and calling to conspiracy. And saying that all is created by the media and… Bah.
You could throw him to the moon, he’d see the remains and go “Yea well GOVERNMENT ADDED THEM MUCH AFTER BY UNMANNED MISSIONS! It’s all to make you BELIEVE!”
December 12th, 2005 at 5:00 pm
Dori, the “guy” doing the punching was Buzz Aldrin. Neil Armstrong’s side kick when they landed on the moon
December 12th, 2005 at 5:05 pm
Good job, Phil.
It’s always difficult to explain scientific evidence in response to a bunch of “quotable quips” and semi-plausible pseudoscience. Often the real explanation is much more complicated than just saying, “well… it COULD have happened that way.”
I did find it interesting that Bart relies so heavily in “personal testimony” while at the same time he immediately discounts the personal testimony of anyone who disagrees with his position.
He uses his “testimony” argument both to imply that he must be right because Neil Armstrong would not “swear on the bible” and also in accusing you of being unreasonable because you would not accept the “sworn testimony” of astronauts that it never happened… sworn testimony which he, of course, cannot produce, but it gives him a chance to call you “closed minded.”
Interesting to learn that no one has ever actually climbed Mt. Everest because Bart hasn’t been there. I hope he’s been to Hawaii… otherwise I might not exist.
sheesh
December 12th, 2005 at 5:10 pm
HAHA, An-HEA-friend!, that makes it even more hilarious! I knew the name of the man, but I didn’t know he was the sidekick to Neil Armstrong when they landed!
That’s classic.
December 12th, 2005 at 5:10 pm
GOOD ONE PHIL! Hawaii doesn’t exist because Bart has not been there. Can we say, “Delusions of grandeur?” Sure we can!
Actually, the next time he brings up the NASA connection, remind him that he said, “NASA was duped by the government,” too. If that is the case, in his mind, why would NASA grants be of any value to the debate? He wants it both ways…..
You KNOW he’ll bring it up again
December 12th, 2005 at 5:12 pm
Excuse me, I meant “GOOD ONE PAUL!”
December 12th, 2005 at 5:20 pm
Phil,
Good job man, that Bart Sibrel fellow is a complete mental case.
A professtion film producer and photographer?
After he said that line about shadows all being parralell, being a photographer myself, i went outside and looked. Held up two broom handels. And sure enough the shadows followed the terrain. Additionally and even more import, if one was tilted just slight and the other not, I could get radically varying angels on the shadows. Had one pointing about 25 degrees into the other.
My advise in the future when debating people is when they start answering questions with a question, to put a stop to it immediately. It’s a blanant form of evasion (lieing). Bart did that almost continually and I so -wished- to call in, and reach through the phone to throttle him for it.
December 12th, 2005 at 5:20 pm
Darn Phil, wish I had heard the show. I hope someone has recorded it and will kindly submit it on the web somewhere.
December 12th, 2005 at 5:35 pm
Nice job Phil. Too bad Bart is more interested in deflecting questions than
actually answering them. But even with all his dancing, he still managed to
make a fool of himself. I’d love to watch you destroy him is a properly moderated debate.
December 12th, 2005 at 5:56 pm
‘BA vs. BS’
Quite appropriate title
December 12th, 2005 at 6:00 pm
Hey, here’s something to pi** off the moon-hoax crowd: a game where you run the space program and land on the Moon before the Soviets (unless you’re playing the Soviets, of course)… http://www.geocities.com/raceintospace/
December 12th, 2005 at 6:13 pm
I run the glover show fansite and I’ll do my best to get a show copy for people here…
But it was a great show, Bart Sibrel was on a few weeks ago and I didn’t believe a thing he said … plus his credibility went down as soon as he started insulting call-in listeners and talking over anyone who disagreed.
December 12th, 2005 at 6:24 pm
Mr. Sibrel should be handed the honor of being the (second) First Man on the Moon. Unfortunatly with budgetary constraints being what they are we couldn’t afford the spacesuit. Well, sacrifices must be made to advance mankind.
“That’s one small…. *urk*”
As far as Buzz popping this rude twerp in the face, all I can say is that Bob Heinlein would have approved, and that’s all the justification you need.
Great job, Phil.
December 12th, 2005 at 7:07 pm
(I forgot to mention that the best thing about the Moon race game, in this context, is that it’s named after Buzz Aldrin himself.)
December 12th, 2005 at 7:20 pm
GDI, I missed it. That’s what I get for not checking your blog everyday. Is there a copy somewhere?
December 12th, 2005 at 8:43 pm
bugger, i missed it, if only i hadn’t slept in…
December 13th, 2005 at 4:14 am
An-HEA-Friend said:
“Dori, the “guyâ€? doing the punching was Buzz Aldrin. Neil Armstrong’s side kick when they landed on the moon”
Hey, c’mon, I think calling Buzz Neil’s sidekick downplays the role of the Lunar Module Pilot a bit too much. True, Neil was the mission’s Commander, but Buzz had to become a total expert on all of the LM’s systems, on the lunar orbital rendezvous with the CM, the docking procedure, and had to deal with anything that went wrong with the LM while Neil was piloting it.
December 13th, 2005 at 7:50 am
Nigel,
I wrote that “tongue in cheek.” A bit of irreverence, if you will. Of course you are quite correct, his job was a challenging one, as was everyone’s.
BTW, I’ve met Buzz Aldrin on more than a few occasions and have nothing but utter respect for him and every other member of the Apollo team, first to last. So if what I wrote came off as anything other than a bit of funny irreverence on my part, then I must not have expressed it clearly enough
December 13th, 2005 at 3:08 pm
Its kinda scary this guy Bart can be subpoened into court to give his “expert” opinion on the validity of film and photographic evidence
December 13th, 2005 at 3:59 pm
I’d like to formally elect Bart as a future Darwin Award candidate.
It’s his critical thinking and clearly valid concepts that will get him sat on by an elephant IMMEDIATELY after arguing that elephants cannot sit down.
December 13th, 2005 at 7:40 pm
I recorded a decent recording of the show here if you have not read the next post.
http://www.rit.edu/~mlg9612/
December 14th, 2005 at 3:33 am
Sorry I missed this. Any way to hear it?
December 14th, 2005 at 2:53 pm
Jest said:
“I’d like to formally elect Bart as a future Darwin Award candidate.”
He already has passed his genes on so he wouldn’t qualify.
December 14th, 2005 at 3:05 pm
Nigel Depledge Said:
>The thing is, I don’t believe that Sibrel actually believes we never went to the Moon. He was just trying it on with Buzz for the publicity. So for him to call Buzz a liar was the height of hypocrisy (since BS makes his living out of, well, BS).
I don’t know, I think it is entirely possible that Sibrel believes the stuff he’s peddling - or at least the overall premise. I think it’s possible he really thinks we didn’t go, and that he’s justified in using any means necessary, including lying, rude behavior, stalking, insults, etc, to “get the truth out”. Maybe he is just a publicity hound and it’s all a game to him, but I can’t rule out that he’s self-deluded and thinks to some extent he’s a “truth warrior”.
March 3rd, 2007 at 8:34 pm
Does anyone have an mp3 of this?